Re: initdb createuser commands

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 8:08 PM, Samuel Williams <
space(dot)ship(dot)traveller(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:

> Sorry, just to clarify, b "worst" I don't mean functionality, I mean
> the way the commands are named and organised.
>
> On 31 October 2016 at 13:07, Samuel Williams
> <space(dot)ship(dot)traveller(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
> > Mike, I agree with "the postgres way of doing things". I'm suggesting
> that
> >
> >> these commands are sufficiently generic that they might clash
> > with other commands.
> >
> >> It's also not obvious they are part of postgresql.
> >
> >> Wouldn't it make more sense to make them subcommand, of, say, a top
> > level pga (postgres admin) command, a bit like how `mysqladmin` works
> >
> > and finally
> >
> >> the naming of these commands seems overly generic
> > and for a new user it's hard to know what commands are available since
> > there is no common prefix (e.g. pg_<tab>) for these commands
> >
> > Just because things are working how they currently are doesn't mean
> > they can't be improved.
> >
> >> If someone isn’t skilled in sql, the requests you’ve made won’t assist
> them at all.
> >
> > This isn't just about someone who is or isn't skilled. I work with
> > MySQL, CouchDB, Redis, and various other technologies. Out of those
> > three, I'd say that Postgres has the worst and most inconsistently
> > named command line tools. It's a large overhead for day to day
> > operation to deal with inconsistency at any level.
> >
> > It's not a particularly hard problem to fix and thus I think it's
> > worthy of some attention.
> >
> > On 31 October 2016 at 12:51, Mike Sofen <msofen(at)runbox(dot)com> wrote:
> >> From: Samuel Williams Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2016 3:42 PM
> >> As a community I'd think that having feedback from a new user would be
> >> valuable since as you say, sometimes when you get ingrained into the
> "way of
> >> doing things" that you don't see how they could be improved or
> different.
> >>
> >> Samuel
> >>
> >> ------------------------
> >>
> >> I’d take a different tack. I spent 20 years with SQL Server and easily
> >> (almost gleefully) hopped over to Postgres and especially pgplsql and
> >> PgAdmin III, from using SqlServer Management Studio (SSMS – their
> >> admin/coding app).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sure, I had to learn the PG way of doing things, but really, it was a
> >> no-brainer. I had to spend a few extra cycles learning the PG best
> >> practices and particular way of doing things but it was trivial…google
> and
> >> done. The vast community has created massive amounts of examples for
> nearly
> >> everything imaginable – and some things I would never have imagined
> anyone
> >> would try to do – such that I don’t have to Lewis and Clark it but just
> dive
> >> right in and write code.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> IMO, nothing major needs changing in the language or command syntax –
> it’s
> >> logical and easy for anyone skilled in sql. If someone isn’t skilled in
> >> sql, the requests you’ve made won’t assist them at all.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Sofen (Synthetic Genomics)
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general(at)postgresql(dot)org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
>

*Samuel,*

*I believe you are over simplifying things. Simply renaming a command does
not make it easier to learn or clarify it's use.*

*That is the purpose of documentation. A beginner does not get a better
understanding of command usage by the name of a command,*

*they get it by actually using the command. In addition, I don't know any
DBA that is in favor of longer command names (as you *

*propose prefixing with pg_ ). The fact is, the commands are already self
explanatory. The _only_ way to learn how to be a good DBA*

*is to actually use the commands, and that also includes pg_ctl and psql
commands. I agree that GUI tools make it easier to learn,*

*but is essential to learn the command line tools and how to use. So again,
it is not the name that is important, but the actual usage.*
--
*Melvin Davidson*
I reserve the right to fantasize. Whether or not you
wish to share my fantasy is entirely up to you.