Re: CoC [Final v2]

On Sun, Jan 24, 2016 at 11:14 PM, David E. Wheeler <david(at)justatheory(dot)com>
wrote:

> On Jan 24, 2016, at 11:28 AM, Chris Travers <chris(dot)travers(at)gmail(dot)com>
> wrote:
>
> >> * PostgreSQL is a community project and takes no position on any
> >> political question aside from its usage in the public sector (which we
> >> support). We expect communication in community fora to respect this
> >> need. The community is neither competent nor interested in resolving
> >> more general social or political questions. Nonetheless the core team
> does make an effort at ensuring an atmosphere where all people, regardless
> of background feel generally welcome.
> >
> > I think that would address David Wheeler's concern too.
>
> Alas, no, as it does not address abuse.
>
> > Suppose someone from a divisive organization using PostgreSQL were to
> make a speech at a PostgreSQL conference about a technical topic. Would
> that be off-limits just because they are politically divisive as an
> organization?
>
> If they make hateful statements about members of the community, or to
> interested parties who then report them to the community, then yes.
> Otherwise, we’re saying we’re okay with abuse of any kind as long as it’s
> not on our turf. It’s not politics, it’s hate.
>

First, I think I see your point. Person A says something that person B
takes offense to. Person B writes many irate emails off the list Person A
complains. Thats a hard one to address. Personally I am fine with this
being extended on a case-by-case basis as long as there is a close nexus to
community resources.

However, one thing I am deeply concerned about is defining hate speech in
this case. "reasonably seen as harassment" is extremely vague. It could
for example include email signatures displaying political messages someone
takes strong, personal offense to (my example from earlier). Once you
start down this route, the end result is a PostgreSQL community that has
become a political force beyond things like conventions (as I say, I see
the topless dancer issue as a legitimate community keep-the-peace issue not
one of judging the question of topless dancers generally -- if people want
to go out afterwards to such a place, I would not join, but I dont think
the core community should get involved). I think that would be a very big
mistake.

I think there is a legitimate need for something like the social justice
clause Josh originally added, but I also see why it was removed.

But I will be crystal clear on my (deeply political ;-) viewpoint here: I
do not want to see the PostgreSQL community get hijacked by groups that
want to push Western values on the rest of the world. I want to see us
come together and build one heck of an economic commons that is usable by
and reasonably welcoming to all without regard to, say, political or
philosophical inclinations.

I think that's what we all want. Or it is what I hope we want.

Best Wishes
Chris Travers

David

--
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

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