Re: [Proposal] Table-level Transparent Data Encryption (TDE) and Key Management Service (KMS)

On 7/9/19 4:23 AM, Tomas Vondra wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 06:24:40PM -0400, Joe Conway wrote:
>>On 7/8/19 6:04 PM, Stephen Frost wrote:
>>> * Bruce Momjian (bruce(at)momjian(dot)us) wrote:
>>>> Uh, well, renaming the user was a big problem, but that is the only case
>>>> I can think of. I don't see that as an issue for block or WAL sequence
>>>> numbers. If we want to use a different nonce, we have to find a way to
>>>> store it or look it up efficiently. Considering the nonce size, I don't
>>>> see how that is possible.
>>>
>>> No, this also meant that, as an attacker, I *knew* the salt ahead of
>>> time and therefore could build rainbow tables specifically for that
>>> salt. I could also use those *same* tables for any system where that
>>> user had an account, even if they used different passwords on different
>>> systems...
>>>
>>> I appreciate that *some* of this might not be completely relevant for
>>> the way a nonce is used in cryptography, but I'd be very surprised to
>>> have a cryptographer tell me that a deterministic nonce didn't have
>>> similar issues or didn't reduce the value of the nonce significantly.
>>
>>I have worked side by side on projects with bona fide cryptographers and
>>I can assure you that they recommended random nonces. Granted, that was
>>in the early 2000s, but I don't think "modern cryptography" has changed
>>that any more than "web scale" has made Postgres irrelevant in the
>>intervening years.
>>
>>Related links:
>>
>>https://defuse.ca/cbcmodeiv.htm
>>https://www.cryptofails.com/post/70059609995/crypto-noobs-1-initialization-vectors
>>
>
> AFAIK it very much depends on the encryption mode. CBC mode does require
> random nonces, other modes may be fine with even sequences as long as
> the values are not reused. In which case we might even use the LSN, for
> example. And I wonder if sha2(LSN) could be considered "random", but
> maybe that's entirely silly idea ...

Yeah, we worked mostly with CBC so that could be the case in terms of
what is required. But I don't think it is ever a bad idea.

But as Stephen pointed out elsewhere on this thread, I think we should
be getting our guidance from places like NIST, which has actual experts
in this stuff.

Joe

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