Re: Synchronous commit behavior during network outage

From: Andrey Borodin <x4mmm(at)yandex-team(dot)ru>
To: Jeff Davis <pgsql(at)j-davis(dot)com>
Cc: SATYANARAYANA NARLAPURAM <satyanarlapuram(at)gmail(dot)com>, Ondřej Žižka <ondrej(dot)zizka(at)stratox(dot)cz>, Aleksander Alekseev <aleksander(at)timescale(dot)com>, PostgreSQL Hackers <pgsql-hackers(at)lists(dot)postgresql(dot)org>
Subject: Re: Synchronous commit behavior during network outage
Date: 2021-07-03 09:06:24
Views: Raw Message | Whole Thread | Download mbox | Resend email
Lists: pgsql-hackers

> 3 июля 2021 г., в 01:15, Jeff Davis <pgsql(at)j-davis(dot)com> написал(а):
> On Fri, 2021-07-02 at 11:39 +0500, Andrey Borodin wrote:
>> If the failover happens due to unresponsive node we cannot just turn
>> off sync rep. We need to have some spare connections for that (number
>> of stuck backends will skyrocket during network partitioning). We
>> need available descriptors and some memory to fork new backend. We
>> will need to re-read config. We need time to try after all.
>> At some failures we may lack some of these.
> I think it's a good point that, when things start to go wrong, they can
> go very wrong very quickly.
> But until you've disabled sync rep, the primary will essentially be
> down for writes whether using this new feature or not. Even if you can
> terminate some backends to try to free space, the application will just
> make new connections that will get stuck the same way.
Surely I'm talking about terminating postmaster, not individual backends. But postmaster will need to terminate each running query.
We surely need to have a way to stop whole instance without making any single query. And I do not like kill -9 for this purpose.

> You can avoid the "fork backend" problem by keeping a connection always
> open from the HA tool, or by editing the conf to disable sync rep and
> issuing SIGHUP instead. Granted, that still takes some memory.
>> Partial degradation is already hard task. Without ability to easily
>> terminate running Postgres HA tool will often resort to SIGKILL.
> When the system is really wedged as you describe (waiting on sync rep,
> tons of connections, and low memory), what information do you expect
> the HA tool to be able to collect, and what actions do you expect it to
> take?
HA tool is not going to collect anything. It just calls pg_ctl stop [0] or it's equivalent.

> Presumably, you'd want it to disable sync rep at some point to get back
> online. Where does SIGTERM fit into the picture?

HA tool is going to terminate running instance, rewind it, switch to new timeline and enroll into cluster again as standby.

>>> If you don't handle the termination case, then there's still a
>>> chance
>>> for the transaction to become visible to other clients before its
>>> replicated.
>> Termination is admin command, they know what they are doing.
>> Cancelation is part of user protocol.
> From the pg_terminate_backend() docs: "This is also allowed if the
> calling role is a member of the role whose backend is being terminated
> or the calling role has been granted pg_signal_backend", so it's not
> really an admin command. Even for an admin, it might be hard to
> understand why terminating a backend could result in losing a visible
> transaction.
Ok, I see backend termination is not described as admin command.
We cannot prevent user from doing stupid things, they are able to delete their data anyway.

> I'm not really seeing two use cases here for two GUCs. Are you sure you
> want to disable only cancels but allow termination to proceed?

Yes, I'm sure. I had been running production with disabled termination for some weeks. cluster reparation was much slower. For some reason kill-9-ed instances were successfully rewound much less often. But maybe I've done something wrong.

If we can stop whole instance the same way as we did without activating proposed GUC - there is no any problem.


Best regards, Andrey Borodin.


In response to


Browse pgsql-hackers by date

  From Date Subject
Next Message Dean Rasheed 2021-07-03 10:14:37 Re: WIP: Relaxing the constraints on numeric scale
Previous Message Fabien COELHO 2021-07-03 08:45:43 Re: rand48 replacement