Re: Patch committers

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> That's basically just it:  Assume bashing is part of the process.  Don't
>> think of it as bashing.  Take the constructive criticism from it, ignore
>> the rest.  Assume only one out of three feature ideas will make it.
>> Apply the prerequisite amount of gamesmanship to the system and tune
>> your bikeshedding detectors.  Don't take anything personally.  Live and
>> learn.
>
> I think what Emmanuel is complaining about here ... with some
> justification ... is not the revision requirements of our patch process
> but the extremely confusing and frustrating nature of it for new
> contributors.  For example, how exactly is a new contributor supposed to
> know the difference between "bikeshedding" and "constructive criticism",
> when (a) they don't know the people involved, and (b) even our more
> dedicated committers engage in bikeshedding periodically?
>
> This isn't just Emmanuel; I've heard this complaint from numerous
> first-time contributors, and have seen several talented people walk away
> from our project because of it.  Even people who have stuck with us,
> such as Josh Tolley, have remarked on the "hazing ritual" inherent in
> getting a first-time contribution in.

I used to feel this way, too. I'm not sure whether it's really worse
at first, or whether it just seems worse a first until you get used to
it. There is no getting around the fact that this is a community of
very smart people. I work at a company where I'm the only developer.
Guess what - my development ideas are all brilliant - or at least
there's no contrary evidence! Then I come here, where there are
plenty of other developers just as smart as I am, or possibly smarter,
and here some of my ideas crash and burn. On the other hand,
sometimes someone objects to my idea and the *objections* crash and
burn. You can't expect to win them all when you're dealing with
people who are as smart as you and more knowledgeable about the code.

I try to be gentle with newcomers but it's not always easy to figure
out what that means. When someone submits a bad patch and I review
it, they sometimes get two or three pages of feedback detailing
inadequacies of various types. I understand that can be hard on the
ego, but I don't think it does anyone any favors to give them a
PARTIAL list of things they need to fix - in fact I think breaking up
the pain into multiple rounds is quite a bit worse, because then you
create the illusion of progress without the actuality. I don't give
people feedback because I want to hurt them or cause them pain, but I
know from experience that until those things are fixed, it *will*
*not* *get* *committed*. If I say nothing now, someone else will say
it later.

I am afraid that the difference between bikeshedding and legitimate
criticism is something that contributors have to learn for themselves.
I can tell you which things *I* think are bikeshedding, but someone
else may have a longer, shorter, or same-size non-overlapping list.
No one can speak with authority on this topic because no one is the
boss.

All that having been said, I feel your pain. I don't want to scare
off new contributors, but I don't necessarily know how to improve the
situation.

> Probably, the only possible solution is for each new contributor to have
> a mentor who sticks with them throughout the process of getting their
> first contribution accepted, explaining the process, pre-reviewing their
> submissions, and explaining to them which criticism they should be
> paying attention to and which they shouldn't.  I *thought* that Bruce
> was doing that for AsterData, but apparently not.

Well, this is a good idea, although I'm not sure how well it will play
out in practice. I'm always game if anyone wants to email me off-list
to discuss issues of this type, or...

> This would require a pool of experienced contributors volunteering to be
> mentors, which I'm not sure we have.

...I'm willing to do this.

> It would also help if people on this list *in general*, were to be a bit
> more consistent about phrasing criticism as constructive criticism.
> I've seen far too much "how stupid are you?" on this list for the good
> health of our developer community.

I don't see very much of this at all, so maybe this is another area
where it boils down to perspective. I find this list to be quite
civilized most of the time; I wouldn't hang around if I didn't.

...Robert