Re: Key management with tests

From: Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>
To: Andres Freund <andres(at)anarazel(dot)de>
Cc: Robert Haas <robertmhaas(at)gmail(dot)com>, Thomas Munro <thomas(dot)munro(at)gmail(dot)com>, PostgreSQL-development <pgsql-hackers(at)postgresql(dot)org>, Stephen Frost <sfrost(at)snowman(dot)net>, Masahiko Sawada <masahiko(dot)sawada(at)2ndquadrant(dot)com>
Subject: Re: Key management with tests
Date: 2021-01-16 01:49:10
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On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 04:56:24PM -0800, Andres Freund wrote:
> On 2021-01-15 19:21:32 -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > You have to understand cryptography and Postgres internals to understand
> > the design, and I don't think it is realistic to explain that all to the
> > community. We did much of this in voice calls over months because it
> > was too much of a burden to explain all the cryptographic details so
> > everyone could follow along.
> I think that's not at all acceptable. I don't mind hashing out details
> on calls / off-list, but the design needs to be public, documented, and
> reviewable. And if it's something the community can't understand, then
> it can't get in. We're going to have to maintain this going forward.

OK, so we don't want it. That's fine with me.

> I don't mean to say that we need to re-hash all design details from
> scratch - but that there needs to be an explanation somewhere that
> describes what's being done on a medium-high level, and what drove those
> design decisions.

I thought the TODO list was that, and the email threads.

> > > The wiki page doesn't really describe a design either. It has a very
> > > long todo, a bunch of implementation details, but no design.
> >
> > I am not sure what design document you are requesting. I thought the
> > TODO was that.
> The TODO in
> is a design document?


> > > Nor did 978f869b99 include much in the way of design description.
> > >
> > > You cannot expect anybody to review a patch if developing some basic
> > > understanding of the intended design requires reading hundreds of
> > > messages in which the design evolved. And I don't think it's acceptable
> > > to push it due to lack of further feedback, given this situation - the
> > > lack of design description is a blocker in itself.
> >
> > OK, I will just move on to something else then. It is not worth the
> > feature to go into that kind of discussion again. I am willing to have
> > voice calls with individuals to explain the logic, but repeatedly
> > explaining it to the entire group I find unproductive. I don't think
> > another 400-email thread would help anyone.
> Explaining something over voice doesn't help with people in a year or
> five trying to understand the code and the design, so they can adapt it
> when making half-related changes. Nor do I see why another 400 email
> thread would be a necessary consequence of you explaining the design
> that you came up with.

I have underestimated the amount of discussion this has required
repeatedly, and I don't want to make that mistake again.

> This isn't specific to this topic? I don't really understand why this
> specific feature gets to avoid normal community development processes?

What is being avoided?

> > > - tests:
> > > - wait, a .sh test script? No, we shouldn't add any more of those,
> > > they're nightmare across platforms
> >
> > The script originatad from pg_upgrade. I don't know how to do things
> > like initdb and stuff another way, at least in our code.
> We have had perl tap tests for quite a while now? And all new tests that
> aren't regression / isolation tests are expected to be written in it.

What Perl tap tests run initdb and manage the cluster? I didn't find

Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>

The usefulness of a cup is in its emptiness, Bruce Lee

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