Yeah, sure. Whatever.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org] On Behalf Of
Arthur(at)LinkLine(dot)com
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:35 PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
Dear Eric,
Thanks for your input! I'm still in favor of developing a Windows
version of PostGreSQL. But I don't think that intelligent people are
going to want to use any version of Windows (especially since the news
of DRMOS and TCPA included in Windows XP and soon to be implemented in
all future releases of Windows 2000 Server) to host their own website
via their DSL line. Another few reasons for this choice are the
constant crashes of ALL versions of Windows and the increasing lack of
responsiveness to fix bugs or admit to "less than advertised"
limitations.
Also, people who don't appreciate the far less than honest approach to
Access users that MS has taken, are not about to spend thousands of
dollars on MS SQL Server. At least not at a time when all signs point
to abandoning Windows in favor of Linux, as a "necessary" step, albeit
painful. "Necessary" because of the improved security that is possible,
with sufficient Linux expertise and because of the lowered risk of being
at only one company's mercy...as pointed out by the senator from Peru
and many others since.
Allowing MS to continue a 90 + percent market share (by remaining
blissfully ignorant) until TCPA is fully implemented in all supported
versions of Windows is nothing short of total insanity. I believe that
most Americans are intelligent enough to realize this and avoid that
scenario by making the switch to Linux. I don't believe that we
Americans are stupid enough to let a company like MS take away almost
every freedom that now exists in the field of technological development!
If we are, then we will shortly lose our other freedoms as
well...through ignorance and apathy.
I believe that we will see many mfgs of motherboards that don't include
the "Fritz chip" that are designed for those who vote for Linux and make
the switch to an unfamiliar OS...primarily due to their discovery of the
TCPA/MS agenda. Am I sure about this? Yes! Look at the intense
interest shown by other countries in Linux application development for
the GUI desktop. Do you think they will abandon their investment? I
don't think so. Especially not in Taiwan or China where flexible and
compatible "hard Real Time" versions of Linux are a primary development
focus...to be marketed here in the US!
(Examples: http://www.redsonic.com and China Soft...their website link
can be found at the Redsonic website....hope you can read Chinese!)
Redsonic's toolset will beat WinCE in the near future...without any
doubt. The performance improvement and user friendliness of their tools
far exceed any version of WinCE.
And Redsonic isn't the only "Real Time" competitor. There are many,
many others...and a steady flow of new ones.
If we as Americans don't make the switch to Linux instead of Windows,
including end users at home, then I can think of one Biblical phrase
that fits, "Don't cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend
you". In other words, "send back your PC to the store"...we're too
stupid and self absorbed to have the privilege of using them or to enjoy
our current freedoms. Switching to Linux is currently a "pain" to be
sure...but it is less painful than what will surely follow if the MS
plan works. "A word to the wise is sufficient". And it won't be long
until it is much less painful to make the switch.
Sincerely,
Arthur Baldwin
I'm afraid that I don't hold as much faith as you that Linux will become
the "defacto standard" toolset for all website servers. MS, despite its
major shortcomings, is fairly slow and steady when it comes to
improvements to its OS. That said, Access is crap because no one uses it
for what it was built to be used for. And I would imagine that MS would
rather spend their time/money on SQL Server development. I agree with
you that pgsql needs a more powerful, GUI interface. The QBE interface
in Access is nice. However, I don't agree that it is unimportant to have
a Windows version. Point being, that Linux users are used to - and sadly
often expect - poor interfaces with the programs they use. Windows users
are far less forgiving. If, what you are talking about, is truly wide
spread use for PC's and small-time web-servers then a Windows interface
is damn near necessary.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-hackers-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org
[mailto:pgsql-hackers-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org] On Behalf Of
Arthur(at)LinkLine(dot)com
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:05 PM
To: PostGreSQL Hackers
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] pg_access
I'm pleased to see some renewed interest in pg_access. It seems obvious
to me that MS Access is not currently...and probably never will be able
to handle data in a robust and reliable fashion. MS Access' apparent
success is due to the user interface quality and "ease of use" for
"non-programmers". The "Relationships View" window, for example, is one
of the best and most useful features ever invented for any database
toolset.
In reality PostGreSQL is in a "strong position" to fill the "reliability
void" left by MS Access. However, the general public doesn't know much
about the short comings of Access, due to MS advertising and sales
efforts. It seems clear to me that the best way to "promote" the use of
PostGreSQL is to offer more "ease of use" GUI interfaces for changing
table structures, indexes, relationships, and upgrading older versions
of files. Although it would be nice to have a native Windows version of
PostGreSQL, as well as a Linux version, I expect Linux to replace
Windows on a large number of PCs in the near future. I think that
"having a Windows version" will not be a significant issue at that
point. However, GUI based "ease of use" features WILL be an extremely
important issue and will increase in importance for the rest of the
forseeable future. Using a "browser" to implement the GUI toolset is a
good start, but it probably won't support the same degree of user
friendliness that is seen in the "Relationships View" window of MS
Access, where a relationship can be instantly "drawn" with a mouse, and
fields added to the Table with a simple "right click" on the Table
header.
If we do a good job of providing GUI based tools, similar to MS Access,
as well as conversion tools from Access to PostGreSQL for existing data,
then PostGreSQL and Linux should quickly become the "defacto standard"
toolset for all website servers. It seems to me like PostGreSQL is
already on this pathway, "like it or not", and that focussing on the GUI
toolset is essential to maintaining a good relationship with those who
are new to the Linux world. Whether you realize it or not, there is a
humongous tidal wave of MS Access users currently gathering enough
database theory expertise to "realize" the MS "snow job" they've been
given about its reliability. They will be forced into finding another
solution and chances are VERY good they won't opt for MS SQL Server or
Oracle. If we are ready to give a solution to them...great....sorry MS,
but they seem to "like us better". If we are not ready, then our future
won't have anything to do with MS, only our own lack of vision.
At our current level of GUI tools, we can't expect any positive response
even from fairly talented self taught computer programmers who have been
interested in Linux since 1998 or later. Soon, there will be many
Windows IT Specialists who will be seriously investigating the Linux OS
and the "best database tools" available for it. Add to this list "end
users" who are fed up with daily Windows crashes and are experimenting
with hosting their own DSL based website servers....and well...there's
your tidal wave! Ready or not....the wave is directly behind us....time
to "paddle" for all we're worth!
Sincerely,
Arthur Baldwin