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Re: [Cert] Re: PostgreSQL Certification

From: Hans-Juergen Schoenig <postgres(at)cybertec(dot)at>
To: Jean-Paul Argudo <jean-paul(at)postgresqlfr(dot)org>
Cc: Dave Page <dpage(at)postgresql(dot)org>, "Joshua D(dot) Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com>, cert(at)lists(dot)postgresqlcertification(dot)org, greg(at)tcscs(dot)com, pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org, Greg Smith <gsmith(at)gregsmith(dot)com>
Subject: Re: [Cert] Re: PostgreSQL Certification
Date: 2008-02-04 19:00:51
Message-ID: (view raw, whole thread or download thread mbox)
Lists: pgsql-advocacypgsql-general
>> what i am trying to point out is the following: imagine simon  
>> riggs or
>> yourself. you are definitely guys who should be allowed to certify  
>> people.
>> so, somehow we have to "flag" people like you to allow them to issue
>> certifications ...
>> i would suggest that individual or companies who have contributed  
>> codes
>> to the postgresql backend (or other major pg project like pgadmin,
>> dbi-link or whatever) should have some "gold" status and that only  
>> those
>> people are actually allowed to certify other people. this would  
>> help us
>> to make sure that we don't have too many "wonnabies" around and we  
>> can
>> ensure top quality.
> I disagree on this point.
> To me, we are discussing certification on a user-end point of view.

> I want DBAs to be certified, not a certificate of PostgreSQL hacking.
> Sure, PostgreSQL hackers are good at PostgreSQL DBA... But companies
> don't want PostgreSQL hackers to manage their databases, they want  
> DBAs.

Somebody who issues a certificate has to be know more than just the  
syntax of pg_dump.
If we want to make sure that this certificate is worth anything, we  
have to make sure that people who are allowed to issue it are more  
than just "a little postgres".
otherwise we end up with a nightmare - 50000000000 people will issue  
worthless certificates.
if every stupid guy wearing a tie is allowed to issue this, it is  
worthless ...

>> i would suggest the policy: "if you want to certify people, send us a
>> patch proving that you know how pg really works". this would give the
>> entire thing a really professional look and it would be a very  
>> straight
>> and easy rule.
> I disagree completely. You'll have less than 10 companies certified
> worldwide then. And less than a few hundred of ceritified "PostgreSQL
> hackers", what the industry really don't care about.

this is exactly my point.
how many companies do you know who are really good at postgres?
personally i am really fed up of "self announced postgres" people.
i am fixing problems caused by those people day after day.
if we decide to introduce a certificate we have to make sure that it  
is really professional.
to me doing some advocacy posting is just not enough to certify.
more deep knowledge is required.
somebody who has been in professional postgresql business has written  
at least one piece of useful code which has been released to the  
public - so it is no big deal.
i just want to avoid that every guy who is able to type pg_dump can  
do the job ...

> CTO want to hire PostgreSQL DBAs and with a right certification  
> program,
> they'll have a paper to ask them...
> In the same idea:
>  - a TOEFL (or TOIC) relates your knowledge in English
>  - a driving licence relates your knowledge of driving a car
>  - etc....
> A PostgreSQL certification relates your knowledge in managing  
> PostgreSQL
> databases, not how PostgreSQL is coded.

i am not talking about the guy who gets certified.
i am referring to the people who are allowed to issue certificates.
if you know how PG works inside - then you are qualified to certify  
other people.
if you don't have detailed knowledge about internal algorithms, you  
are just not qualified to certify other people.

postgres is the database of professionals ...

>> if we don't ensure top quality, the entire thing is worthless. if  
>> every
>> half-professional is allowed to certify, we can already stop  
>> before we
>> start.
> I know thats not what you wanted to tell us, but Its a kind of  
> rudeness
> to me reading this.
> Saying that top quality is only achieved with PostgreSQL coding, and
> that all others are half-professional is an insult to me.

you got me wrong. i am just telling that we need strict guidelines  
and strict tests.
otherwise it is worthless ...

>> most guys on this list here have written one or the other patch in  
>> the
>> past so it should be fine ...
>> how about that?
> Most guys on this list? I think thats the contrary.
> But please admit we are discussing the PostgreSQL certification on the
> end-user point of view!!
> I mean I want DBAs to have a paper that "certificate" they have enough
> knowledge in PostgreSQL to manage database upon this technology the
> right way.

don't get me wrong but you have to distinguish between fundermental  
knowledge and pure posting power ...
what we want is a certificate issued by people who really know about  
not every guy running a postgres forum is qualified to actually judge  
others ...

	many thanks,


Cybertec Schönig & Schönig GmbH
PostgreSQL Solutions and Support
Gröhrmühlgasse 26, 2700 Wiener Neustadt
Tel: +43/1/205 10 35 / 340,

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