Re: Switching to XML

On Sat, Dec 09, 2006 at 09:21:12AM +0100, Guillaume Lelarge wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake a écrit :
> > On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 21:58 +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> >> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >>> You can create, edit, convert, save, and open docbook xml in
> >>> OpenOfice.org.
> >> Sure, there are more editing options with DocBook XML. No one disputes
> >> that. But the question at hand was about processing the DocBook.
> >
> > Yes which is generated from our use of SGML which is the core of this
> > problem and the core of the question as a whole.
> >
> > SGML is making working with the documentation *harder*.
>
> +1

Thanks to Peter and Tom for making the PDF build faster, but the more
general problem, which is that the SGML does not actually do the same
things that XML does, no matter how many times Peter so asserts,
remains.

In addition to the long-standing problem that there is no way to edit
the SGML docs with any known GUI tool, we have a particular use case,
namely producing a multi-volume set suitable for printing as books.

> > We have people that *DO NOT* contribute because of this SGML
> > requirement. They have what I consider extremely valid reasons,
> > namely it is dumb to require a writer to use emacs or write tags
> > explictly.

Peter, if you have a working example of a GUI tool that can be used
with the SGML source in its current form, the burden of proof is on
you to demonstrate it. Another flat assertion from you of some kind
of mathematical equivalence between SGML and XML will *not* do the
trick.

> > Hell, the only reason I have even bothered to contribute what
> > little I have to the docs is because I wrote a book in SGML, thus
> > it is a no brainer to me. Others aren't so tortured as to have
> > done the same.
>
> I'm not so sure it will help you find more contributors. I'm part of
> a project which aims to translate HOWTO from TLDP. They don't find
> contributors and we too have really hard times to find contributors
> despite the fact we try to only use DocBook XML (TLDP use DocBook
> SGML, DocBook XML and LinuxDoc formats).
>
> Did you try to use OpenOffice.org with DocBook ? I tried once and it
> was a complete disaster. But it was a long time ago. I will try
> again this week-end.

I gave it a try post-patches, and it's still a disaster 3284 pages of
un-rendered XML.

> > There is a long standing support within the community to move to XML
> > including:
> >
> > Josh Berkus
> > Josh Drake
> > Robert Treat
> > Andrew Dunslane
> > David Blewett
> > David Fetter
> > Devrim Gunduz
> > Darcy Buskermolen
> >
> > And that is just from #postgresql
> >
> > The french team also uses Docbook XML and they can generate a PDF
> > in 30 minutes... it takes us DAYS because of the SGML.
>
> In fact, we need 15 minutes to build HTML files and 10 minutes to
> build PDF file. To be completely honest, I don't seem to be able to
> build PDF file for 8.2.0 release. I must have made a mistake (or
> perhaps a lot of :) ).

It'll be nice to have the document building cycle shorter, but the
point here is that we need to enter the 21st century. That Tom found
a need to fork a document tool, i.e. take ownership of a whole large
piece of software, that being what forking means, is a neon sign that
means, "we're stuck with broken tools."

Cheers,
D
--
David Fetter <david(at)fetter(dot)org> http://fetter.org/
phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666
Skype: davidfetter

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