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Re: What I would say if someone asked me about no

From: Bruce Momjian <pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us>
To: Jan Wieck <JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com>
Cc: Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com>,Merlin Moncure <merlin(dot)moncure(at)rcsonline(dot)com>,Robert Treat <xzilla(at)users(dot)sourceforge(dot)net>,pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org
Subject: Re: What I would say if someone asked me about no
Date: 2003-08-14 22:05:25
Message-ID: 200308142205.h7EM5PF18078@candle.pha.pa.us (view raw or flat)
Thread:
Lists: pgsql-advocacy
Jan is right that we need Win32 maintainers.  I want to set up a few
things to grow the group, just like Jan did when he added foreign keys:

	o mailing list
	o cvs branch
	o web page

I haven't done it yet, because I wanted to get into beta, and have
pgindent run, so any change to the branch will cleanly merge.  Now that
pgindent is done, I will start on that list shortly to grow a dedicated
group to get things moving.

I think I have made some progress because PostgreSQL now compiles on
MinGW.  It is just signals and fork/exec that are left.  We will have
cases of fork/exec breaking in the future due to changes in the code,
but I assume we will enough folks involved in the port at that point
that we can get them fixed quickly.

I think the marketing opportunity for Win32 is just too important.  I am
no Win32 fan myself either, but we have to be on the platform to show
folks how good we are.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jan Wieck wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> 
> > I ran out of time, just like the PITR guy.  Win32 takes tons of time,
> > and working on the PostgreSQL project itself just doesn't allow enough
> > time.
> 
> It is also partly my fault, as I failed on the first attempt to redo the 
> fork+exec part for Bruce, then got a bit frustrated over things not to 
> be discussed publicly and didn't give it much attention, finally I had a 
> ton of other things with higher priority after that. This is not an 
> excuse, it's life, sorry.
> 
> What really bugs me about the entire Win32 port discussion is something 
> else. One of my activities at PeerDirect was to extract out the 7.2.1 
> based Win32 port and contribute it as a patch. That patch went out on 
> January 20, 2003. Applied to a 7.2.1 tree, it compiled under MS VC++ 6.0 
> and produced a fully running native Win32 PostgreSQL. So far for what 
> was available in January.
> 
> Now more than half a year later we have no evidence that there will be 
> qualified and capable maintainers for any Win32 port. Some of the main 
> developers who implement big features and do the kind of work that can 
> break a port easily, especially one that serves a tremendeously 
> different API, have explicitly waved off any interest in Win32 support 
> at all. This is a dangerous combination.
> 
> Bruce and I had discussed this issue briefly and he is of course right 
> that this sort of task requires deep PostgreSQL and Win32 knowledge, 
> both of which takes time to build up. It's the kind of task that 
> requires Core developer help to have any chance. Where I disagree by now 
> is the definition of "help". Just doing the hard parts is not the kind 
> of help needed here. If we do not get people growing into this position 
> right now, there will be a gap between when the port is once done and 
> when others with real Win32 interest will take over the duties. Will 
> there ever be anyone willing to take over an already broken port? And I 
> am sure if nobody is really committed on maintaining this port, it'll be 
> broken in a few months.
> 
> At this point I (personally) would rather not have a Win32 port at all, 
> because all it is buying us under these circumstances will be bad 
> reputation. We have come a long way and the fact that people do not 
> reevaluate things is the reason they still "know" that PostgreSQL is 
> slow and instable. Adding a bad maintained Win32 port is worse than not 
> supporting Win32 at all. The latter might be missing an important 
> platform, the former will build up long lasting bad reputation.
> 
> 
> Jan
> 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 
> > Josh Berkus wrote:
> >> People,
> >> 
> >> > Q. Hey, I read in a bunch of places that 7.4 was going to have native
> >> > windows support, what gives?
> >> 
> >> My answer:
> >> 
> >> A. PostgreSQL has a well-deserved reputation for "bulletproof" reliability and 
> >> stability, which requires each new patch and plug-in to pass stringent 
> >> community testing.  The Win32 platform has proved to be more of a challenge 
> >> than we anticipated in this regard, and we would rather release our Windows 
> >> port late than release a version which might fail in production environments.
> >> 
> >> But, Bruce, since you're head of the port, wanna comment on this?  We're 
> >> trying to prepare a "canned" answer for the inevitable questions.
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> Josh Berkus
> >> Aglio Database Solutions
> >> San Francisco
> >> 
> >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> >> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org
> >> 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> #======================================================================#
> # It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
> # Let's break this rule - forgive me.                                  #
> #================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #
> 
> 
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
> 

-- 
  Bruce Momjian                        |  http://candle.pha.pa.us
  pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us               |  (610) 359-1001
  +  If your life is a hard drive,     |  13 Roberts Road
  +  Christ can be your backup.        |  Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

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