Re: Vote on Omar Design

On Fri, 2004-11-19 at 14:07, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Alexey, Robert,
>
> > I'd like to point out that the design we have now [1] is adequate, while
> > the content is not. I'd also like to remind that the new site was made easy
> > to skin, so applying the newer design will take a small amount of time.
> > Fixing and porting the content will take a much longer time, though.
> >
> > Therefore, I'm willing to support Omar's design, but *after* the content
> > fixing and porting work is finished. This work may continue even in the
> > current design.
>
> I was under the impression that porting the content to Lucasz' design, putting
> it up, applying Omar's design, and then re-arranging the content to fit
> Omar's design, was much more work than just doing Omar's design. Was I
> mistaken?
>

I'm sure it would be more work, but swapping to Omar's design is not a
magic bullet for everything on the TODO list.

> And Omar has already ported part of the content to his design as an example,
> and is willing to do more. It would be one thing if you'd said that
> Lucasz' design was the only way we'd get a new site up by 8.0, but you've not
> said that ... so both options seem to be equivalent, and Omar's is the better
> looking design, at least I've not seen anyone say otherwise.
>

Nope. the only one I have seen against the idea was Dave based on not
throwing out lukacz work, however I posted some reasoning where we might
want to do that.

> > I have already laid out a case for problems in
> > Lukacz's design that I don't see anyone interested in addressing, but by
> > the same token I still have not seen a "stretchy" version of Omar's
> > design which we have said we need to see before we can swap.
>
> Who's "we"? I don't recall a spec document anywhere that says that the
> design has to be "stretchy", nor do I recall any discussion on this list to
> that effect. Maybe my memory is faulty, give me a link.
>

Read the archives, it has been discussed a number of times. It was
mentioned specifically in regards to this design here:
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2004-11/msg00146.php

> Robert, I can recall a period last year where you were justifiably very angry
> at Core for making decisions and refusing to discuss the reasons publically.
> Now you are doing the same; saying that you have a right to guide the web
> site because you, Dave, Alexey and Devrim do most of the work (which you do)
> and that you don't have to discuss your reasons with anyone. While the
> former is justifiable, the latter is not. Not when Core does it, and not
> when you do it.
>

This is a baseless accusation and quite honestly I am offended by it. I
have never said the web team can guide anything without discussing our
reasoning. Hell I'm one of the few who have advocated making the web
development process more open. And we *have* discussed the changes right
here on this list. A Lot.

> You may have very good reasons, but you've not expressed them anywhere I can
> read them. So if you do, then open up.
>

Reasons for what? When Omar posted his design, Dave said he needed to
see it stretchy, and Marc said it needed to have banner ads worked in.
I've not seen the former addressed at all and I've not seen any
agreement that the latter has been met enough (though I have seen some
banners added, so maybe it has). All of this I have posted previously
on this list.

> >From my perspective:
> 1) Omar's design is undeniably better-looking and easier to navigate than
> Lucasz's;
> 2) Porting to Omar's design rather than Lucasz's will make no difference in
> the go-live time of the web site;
> 3) Omar has demonstrated that he will be around to help with the port, which I
> don't think Lucasz is (since www-committers has no public archive, I can't
> tell if Lucasz has been helping quietly in the background).
>

afaik the gborg mailing lists are all public archives, and thats where
you'll find our commit logs. (If it isn't, it isn't because we have
requested it to remain private.

> If either of these points is debatable, then let's talk them out. But so far
> I've not seen a single statement from you, Dave, or Alexey contradicting any
> of the above.
>
> > These calls
> > for voting are just hand-waving IMHO.
>
> No, it's a vote on what we want Omar and others to work on; patching Lucasz's
> design or porting to his own. I vote the latter -- unless, of course, you
> want to argue the 3 points above.
>

What I want to see Omar work on is 1)Resolving the banner ads issue,
2)Resolving the stretchy issue, and 3) Working up a patch to implement
his design against current CVS. (For the record, all three of these
things have been asked about on this list) If these are done before the
"lukacz no left menu" issue (that I have, also for the record, posted
about on this list!) then I imagine we will make the swap very quickly.

Robert Treat
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