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Re: postgresql live-cd
How much y'all need? S -----Original Message----- From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com] Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:34 AM To: pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org Cc: Josh Berkus; Jim Nasby; Koen Martens; robin(at)sonologic(dot)nl; Stephen Slezak Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] postgresql live-cd On Friday 30 June 2006 17:17, Josh Berkus wrote: > Jim, > > > As a reminder, Pervasive would be happy to handle production of the CDs. > > The goal is to avoid putting any company's name on them this time so > that the CDs can be used at multiple conferences. Pervasive could however, contribute to the PostgreSQL SPI fund to help pay for the cds if they like. It is tax deductible. Joshua D. Drake > > --Josh Berkus > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org so that your > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 06:54, Stephen Slezak wrote: > How much y'all need? I will be able to let you know this week. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake > > S > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com] > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 12:34 AM > To: pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org > Cc: Josh Berkus; Jim Nasby; Koen Martens; robin(at)sonologic(dot)nl; Stephen > Slezak > Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] postgresql live-cd > > On Friday 30 June 2006 17:17, Josh Berkus wrote: > > Jim, > > > > > As a reminder, Pervasive would be happy to handle production of the > > > CDs. > > > > The goal is to avoid putting any company's name on them this time so > > that the CDs can be used at multiple conferences. > > Pervasive could however, contribute to the PostgreSQL SPI fund to help pay > for the cds if they like. It is tax deductible. > > Joshua D. Drake > > > --Josh Berkus > > > > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- > > TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate > > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org so that your > > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > On Wednesday 05 July 2006 06:54, Stephen Slezak wrote: >> How much y'all need? > > I will be able to let you know this week. We'll probably have a last version of the CD ready today, although it is lacking a bit into the example databases department. It has procedural languages, but you need to enable them when you create a database. There is currently no example database using procedural languages on the iso. We'll check out some of the other live cd's for example db's for a very last release i think, although we did seem to have trouble locating them. If someone has a bundle of nice example databases lying around -> please mail me! Joshua, when do you need the master image? Gr, Koen -- K.F.J. Martens, Sonologic, http://www.sonologic.nl/ Networking, hosting, embedded systems, unix, artificial intelligence. Public PGP key: http://www.metro.cx/pubkey-gmc.asc Wondering about the funny attachment your mail program can't read? Visit http://www.openpgp.org/
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 08:14, Koen Martens wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > On Wednesday 05 July 2006 06:54, Stephen Slezak wrote: > >> How much y'all need? > > > > I will be able to let you know this week. > > We'll probably have a last version of the CD ready today, although > it is lacking a bit into the example databases department. It has > procedural languages, but you need to enable them when you create a > database. There is currently no example database using procedural > languages on the iso. Why not add the languages to template1 so that they are created automatically? > > > Joshua, when do you need the master image? > No later then Friday morning PST. > Gr, > > Koen
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 11:14, Koen Martens wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > On Wednesday 05 July 2006 06:54, Stephen Slezak wrote: > >> How much y'all need? > > > > I will be able to let you know this week. > > We'll probably have a last version of the CD ready today, although > it is lacking a bit into the example databases department. It has > procedural languages, but you need to enable them when you create a > database. There is currently no example database using procedural > languages on the iso. > > We'll check out some of the other live cd's for example db's for a > very last release i think, although we did seem to have trouble > locating them. > > If someone has a bundle of nice example databases lying around -> > please mail me! > The pagila sample database has sql and plpgsql functions, a custom aggregate and custom domain, and optionally tsearch2 as well. You can get it from the sample databases project at http://pgfoundry.org/projects/dbsamples/ -- Robert Treat Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
Guys,
I'm announcing that I'm on the tailend of completing my own implementation of
pg_live. It's based on Ubuntu so it has full installation capabilities if
the user wants it.
The full version weighs in around 720mb but that's going to drop after I have
removed the language packages that aren't required in an English only
environment.
There's a lot of documentation that I've added in added to the standard
reference documentation. All of which is accesible through its own http
webserver.
Here's an excerpt of the iso's README file:
===============================
FEATURES
Pg_live is a sophisticated environment that runs a number of services on
bootup and includes:
- Apache, which is enabled with PHP
- SSH server thus allowing secure logins from other workstations that are on
the same network
- PostgreSQL, version 8.1.4
- pgpool, the PostgreSQL connection pool daemon
The PostgreSQL server has been preconfigured with the following procedural
languages:
plpgsql
plr
plperl
plperlu
plpythonu
pltcl
pltclu
plphp
plphpu
The following interpretative programing languages are included:
perl
python
R
tcl
PHP
OTHER
- Postgresql contributions
- SLONY (with lots of example scripts)
POSTGRESQL CLIENTS AND UTILITIES
pgadmin3
phppgadmin
psql
The console based web-browser, ELINKS, is ideal when running in "console only"
mode. Thus permitting access to otherwise inaccesible GUI features such as
pg_live's Apache PHP client, phppgadmin, and of course the included reference
documentation.
HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS
- GUI, 160MB RAM (default boot, all services running)
- GUI, 125MB RAM (runlevel 4, no services running)
- CONSOLE, 55MB RAM (single user mode, runlevel 1, no services running)
- CONSOLE, 90MB RAM (runlevel 3, all services running)
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 11:28, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Wednesday 05 July 2006 08:14, Koen Martens wrote:
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 05 July 2006 06:54, Stephen Slezak wrote:
> > >> How much y'all need?
> > >
> > > I will be able to let you know this week.
> >
> > We'll probably have a last version of the CD ready today, although
> > it is lacking a bit into the example databases department. It has
> > procedural languages, but you need to enable them when you create a
> > database. There is currently no example database using procedural
> > languages on the iso.
>
> Why not add the languages to template1 so that they are created
> automatically?
>
> > Joshua, when do you need the master image?
>
> No later then Friday morning PST.
>
> > Gr,
> >
> > Koen
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
--
Robert Bernier
PostgreSQL Business Intelligence Analyst
SRA AMERICA (Formerly of One WTC)
PostgreSQL Services:Consulting,Migration,Support and Training
One Penn Plaza, Suite 1910
New York, NY 10119
Tel: 212.244.8833 ext:22
www.sraapowergres.com robertb(at)sraapowergres(dot)com
www.sraamerica.com
pgsql(at)metro(dot)cx (Koen Martens) writes: > If someone has a bundle of nice example databases lying around -> > please mail me! The following should be suitable for this... <http://pgfoundry.org/projects/dbsamples/> -- (format nil "~S(at)~S" "cbbrowne" "cbbrowne.com") http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/emacs.html Evil Overlords tend to get overthrown due to overly baroque plans with obvious fatal errors. Follow the "Rules of the Evil Overlord," and you need not fear heroic opposition, whether that hero be James Bond, Flash Gordon, or a little hobbit named Frodo.
Hello,
I have been working on getting a company to press the cd's for us. I am fairly
certain I have been successful but, we can NOT delay the delivery of the ISO.
We are already pushing it by giving only two weeks for them.
So everyone knows:
QTY: 2000 cds
White Envelope with Window
Insertion included in cost
Full color label with blue elephant
Based on all of this, I would ask that I have the ISO no later then thursday
if possible.
Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
--
=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/
I wish i had known this all, i would have never gotten in to this. I put one of my employees on this, it has cost me money. Apparently, there was no need for our effort afterall, so I basically wasted money. Bit disappointed here. What a complete waste of time this has been. Robert Bernier wrote: > Guys, > > I'm announcing that I'm on the tailend of completing my own implementation of pg_live. It's based on Ubuntu so it has full installation capabilities if the user wants it. > > The full version weighs in around 720mb but that's going to drop after I have removed the language packages that aren't required in an English only environment. > > There's a lot of documentation that I've added in added to the standard reference documentation. All of which is accesible through its own http webserver. > > Here's an excerpt of the iso's README file: > > =============================== > FEATURES > Pg_live is a sophisticated environment that runs a number of services on bootup and includes: > > - Apache, which is enabled with PHP > - SSH server thus allowing secure logins from other workstations that are on the same network > - PostgreSQL, version 8.1.4 > - pgpool, the PostgreSQL connection pool daemon > > The PostgreSQL server has been preconfigured with the following procedural languages: > plpgsql > plr > plperl > plperlu > plpythonu > pltcl > pltclu > plphp > plphpu > > The following interpretative programing languages are included: > perl > python > R > tcl > PHP > > OTHER > - Postgresql contributions > - SLONY (with lots of example scripts) > > POSTGRESQL CLIENTS AND UTILITIES > pgadmin3 > phppgadmin > psql > > The console based web-browser, ELINKS, is ideal when running in "console only" mode. Thus permitting access to otherwise inaccesible GUI features such as pg_live's Apache PHP client, phppgadmin, and of course the included reference documentation. > > HARDWARE REQUIREMENTS > - GUI, 160MB RAM (default boot, all services running) > - GUI, 125MB RAM (runlevel 4, no services running) > - CONSOLE, 55MB RAM (single user mode, runlevel 1, no services running) > - CONSOLE, 90MB RAM (runlevel 3, all services running) > > > > On Wednesday 05 July 2006 11:28, Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> On Wednesday 05 July 2006 08:14, Koen Martens wrote: >>> Joshua D. Drake wrote: >>>> On Wednesday 05 July 2006 06:54, Stephen Slezak wrote: >>>>> How much y'all need? >>>> I will be able to let you know this week. >>> We'll probably have a last version of the CD ready today, although >>> it is lacking a bit into the example databases department. It has >>> procedural languages, but you need to enable them when you create a >>> database. There is currently no example database using procedural >>> languages on the iso. >> Why not add the languages to template1 so that they are created >> automatically? >> >>> Joshua, when do you need the master image? >> No later then Friday morning PST. >> >>> Gr, >>> >>> Koen >> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- >> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster > -- K.F.J. Martens, Sonologic, http://www.sonologic.nl/ Networking, hosting, embedded systems, unix, artificial intelligence. Public PGP key: http://www.metro.cx/pubkey-gmc.asc Wondering about the funny attachment your mail program can't read? Visit http://www.openpgp.org/
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 16:26, Koen Martens wrote: > I wish i had known this all, i would have never gotten in to this. I > put one of my employees on this, it has cost me money. Apparently, > there was no need for our effort afterall, so I basically wasted > money. Bit disappointed here. What a complete waste of time this has > been. I see this as a good thing that the community has a choice. After all, Ubuntu doesn't boot up into everything and knoppix doesn't either. Providing something for the community is never a waste of time or money. robert
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Based on all of this, I would ask that I have the ISO no later then thursday > if possible. Well, let me know which one you prefer. The stuff we've been working on, or the one based on ubuntu. We can have the ISO ready by tomorrow, incorporating most of the comments on this list. But only if it makes sense. If the ubuntu one is going to be used, i'm not going to put more effort in this. I hate doing work that is only a duplication of what others are doing, that gives me no satisfaction at all. Gr, Koen -- K.F.J. Martens, Sonologic, http://www.sonologic.nl/ Networking, hosting, embedded systems, unix, artificial intelligence. Public PGP key: http://www.metro.cx/pubkey-gmc.asc Wondering about the funny attachment your mail program can't read? Visit http://www.openpgp.org/
Koen Martens wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: >> Based on all of this, I would ask that I have the ISO no later then >> thursday if possible. > > Well, let me know which one you prefer. The stuff we've been working > on, or the one based on ubuntu. We can have the ISO ready by > tomorrow, incorporating most of the comments on this list. But only > if it makes sense. If the ubuntu one is going to be used, i'm not > going to put more effort in this. I hate doing work that is only a > duplication of what others are doing, that gives me no satisfaction > at all. > > Gr, > > Koen speaking for myself, I think we should cut some of BOTH. Koen, Please don't give up on contributing. We need ALL the contributions from EVERYONE to keep the project moving forward. Larry Rosenman -- Larry Rosenman http://www.lerctr.org/~ler Phone: +1 512-248-2683 E-Mail: ler(at)lerctr(dot)org US Mail: 430 Valona Loop, Round Rock, TX 78681-3893
I will notify you of the url when the I've completed an upload of the latest version of the pg_live iso in the next few hours. On Wednesday 05 July 2006 16:45, Koen Martens wrote: > Joshua D. Drake wrote: > > Based on all of this, I would ask that I have the ISO no later then > > thursday if possible. > > Well, let me know which one you prefer. The stuff we've been working > on, or the one based on ubuntu. We can have the ISO ready by > tomorrow, incorporating most of the comments on this list. But only > if it makes sense. If the ubuntu one is going to be used, i'm not > going to put more effort in this. I hate doing work that is only a > duplication of what others are doing, that gives me no satisfaction > at all. > > Gr, > > Koen
pgsql(at)metro(dot)cx (Koen Martens) writes: > I wish i had known this all, i would have never gotten in to this. I > put one of my employees on this, it has cost me money. Apparently, > there was no need for our effort afterall, so I basically wasted > money. Bit disappointed here. What a complete waste of time this has > been. Surely not... It's a good thing to get fresh faces involved with this. A "nice to have" would be for there to be two CDs with somewhat varying intents. If discussion over the last year means anything, there is a desire for there to be a FreeBSD-based "live CD," and if that emerges, it seems an excellent idea to have a choice of both a Linux-based option and a FreeBSD-based option. Nothing wrong with that. -- (reverse (concatenate 'string "gro.mca" "@" "enworbbc")) http://cbbrowne.com/info/advocacy.html "A statement is either correct or incorrect. To be *very* incorrect is like being *very* dead ... " -- Herbert F. Spirer Professor of Information Management University of Conn. (DATAMATION Letters, Sept. 1, 1984)
$1225.00 and of course more if you can spare it. The SPI account is used for more then just this, so anytime you can contribute it would be good. https://128bit.clickandpledge.com/default.aspx?ID=12235&cid=US&a= Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
On Wednesday 05 July 2006 17:47, Chris Browne wrote: > pgsql(at)metro(dot)cx (Koen Martens) writes: > > I wish i had known this all, i would have never gotten in to this. I > > put one of my employees on this, it has cost me money. Apparently, > > there was no need for our effort afterall, so I basically wasted > > money. Bit disappointed here. What a complete waste of time this has > > been. > > Surely not... It's a good thing to get fresh faces involved with > this. here here! > A "nice to have" would be for there to be two CDs with somewhat > varying intents. If discussion over the last year means anything, > there is a desire for there to be a FreeBSD-based "live CD," and if > that emerges, it seems an excellent idea to have a choice of both a > Linux-based option and a FreeBSD-based option. Nothing wrong with > that. And I have the perfect candidate, Dru Lavigne. She just this week completed a multi install dvd where you can choose to install either FreeBSD, DragonFly, Open or Net BSD and that includes all the documentation for each distro AND the latest material for the BSDcertification initiative. Why not ask her, she'll be at the conference this weekend?
Hi! I've been working with Koen on the Knoppix based postgres live CD... Thanks for all the comments and suggestions, recent changes: * procedual languages are installed into the template1 db. * The pgfoundry example databases (paglia, world) were already installed on last weeks iso. - now I added a unzipped version so that a user low on RAM can read the .sql files without extracting them...) * improved support for non X11 mode. (gpm, auto-start doc.browser on tty1,..) * many minor fixes (new splash screen, replacement for the low-res pgadmin3 icon, updatedb, kde config,...) stay tuned. I'm just uploading the new image. Robert Bernier wrote: > I'm announcing that I'm on the tailend of completing my own > implementation of pg_live. I'm still downloading it. so I can't comment on it, yet. Reading 'tru the Ubuntu pg-live feature list. I find that it has about the same Features as our knoppix pg-live but the Knoppix variant is somewhat more lightweight: - in runlevel 2 requires only 32 MB RAM - and runlevel 5 (X+KDE) works from about 100 MB - apache + pgphpadmin, sshd,... are installed but not started by default. (there's even a start button in the KDE menu for 'em ;-) - procedural lang support seems to be identical (perl,tcl,php,r,python) and so are the various contrib packages (slony, tsearch2, pgpool,...) > It's based on Ubuntu so it has full installation capabilities if > the user wants it. knoppix can install itself, too (create persistant disk-image Button in the KDE menu) - I don't want to start an Ubuntu vs. Knoppix thread now... but AFAICT the Knoppix autoconfiguration is suitable for more Systems than Ubuntu... > There's a lot of documentation that I've added in added to the > standard reference documentation. If your doc is not specific the ubuntu-live-cd it would be great if we can include them.. - I'd also be interested in the slony example scripts that you mention. -robin
Hello Robin, On Thursday 06 July 2006 10:09, Robin Gareus wrote: > * improved support for non X11 mode. (gpm, auto-start > doc.browser on tty1,..) gpm is a good idea; I find it very usefull > stay tuned. I'm just uploading the new image. I'm curious too :-) > Reading 'tru the Ubuntu pg-live feature list. I find that it has about > the same Features as our knoppix pg-live but the Knoppix variant is > somewhat more lightweight: Yeah, the first time I develop pg_live (2yrs ago) I thought in terms of downloading the iso off the internet. This time around it's more about completeness. > - apache + pgphpadmin, sshd,... are installed but not started by > default. (there's even a start button in the KDE menu for 'em ;-) another good idea i.e. make sure the user knows he has a choice > - procedural lang support seems to be identical (perl,tcl,php,r,python) Did you create an R environment for plr? > and so are the various contrib packages (slony, tsearch2, pgpool,...) > > > It's based on Ubuntu so it has full installation capabilities if > > the user wants it. > > knoppix can install itself, too (create persistant disk-image Button in > the KDE menu) It's been a year since I looked at knoppix, has it become easier to install? > - I don't want to start an Ubuntu vs. Knoppix thread > now... but AFAICT the Knoppix autoconfiguration is suitable for more > Systems than Ubuntu... I wanted to try out Xubuntu just for the fun of it (it uses squashfs as opposed to the knoppix cloop). The biggest difference I found was the simplicity of installing Xubuntu as a working system. The distro has a cool bootup sequence. > > There's a lot of documentation that I've added in added to the > > standard reference documentation. > > If your doc is not specific the ubuntu-live-cd it would be great if we > can include them.. - I'd also be interested in the slony example scripts > that you mention. The documentation is part of my writings written for various publications from the past few years. You may use my articles but please keep my copyright on them. Another request, please do not change the text without first consulting with me (after all this is my bread and butter). Be advised pg_live includes documentation from one other author, the R tutorial. I would like to see the development of a standard set of documentation for future live-cds and see about getting them translated into other languages thus enabling non-english venues with a live cd. Perhaps doing it in French could be the next translation. Comments? cheers Robert
>> - apache + pgphpadmin, sshd,... are installed but not started by >> default. (there's even a start button in the KDE menu for 'em ;-) > > another good idea i.e. make sure the user knows he has a choice > There's a note on the "Notes" page of the html doc. - maybe a Desktop icon would be more suitable ;) I'll fix that later tonight (CEST) - I'll redo the pg-live knoppix iso image again - the current (rev08) has a small Bug: every item in the KDE-knoppix menu is duplicated. :( >> - procedural lang support seems to be identical >> (perl,tcl,php,r,python) > > Did you create an R environment for plr? not really. I was thinking of installing lapack and the various available debian packages, but was scared about diskspace (now I might want to get back and install some of 'em.) > It's been a year since I looked at knoppix, has it become easier to install? I didn't try it myself. > I would like to see the development of a standard set of documentation > for future live-cds and see about getting them translated into other > languages thus enabling non-english venues with a live cd. Perhaps > doing it in French could be the next translation. Comments? I agree - the current doc we included is definitly just tentative. (it is located on the container-iso separated from the system-image-iso, so it's also easy to change) - but given the tight deadline, I didn't bother to cook something up, yet: we could start a cvs/svn repo on pgfoundry or use a wiki to collect the content... and yes: If we're gonna keep 200MB of language support files to the iso, we should at least translate the welcome screen of the pg_live documentation :) -robin
Joshua D. Drake wrote: > Hello, > > I have been working on getting a company to press the cd's for us. I am fairly > certain I have been successful but, we can NOT delay the delivery of the ISO. > We are already pushing it by giving only two weeks for them. > > So everyone knows: > > QTY: 2000 cds > White Envelope with Window > Insertion included in cost > Full color label with blue elephant Joshua ( or anyone else ) where can I find an 'approved' CD label? I'd like to burn a few CDs for passing around to the local Linux user group and computer/tech community. TIA, Rod -- > > Based on all of this, I would ask that I have the ISO no later then thursday > if possible. > > Sincerely, > > Joshua D. Drake > >
Robert, I'm unhappy that you're doing your own, separate live-cd and not collaborating with Koen or Robin at all. Is there a good reason for this? --Josh Berkus
Robert Bernier a écrit : > [...] >>> There's a lot of documentation that I've added in added to the >>> standard reference documentation. >> If your doc is not specific the ubuntu-live-cd it would be great if we >> can include them.. - I'd also be interested in the slony example scripts >> that you mention. > > The documentation is part of my writings written for various publications from the past few years. You may use my articles but please keep my copyright on them. > > Another request, please do not change the text without first consulting with me (after all this is my bread and butter). > > Be advised pg_live includes documentation from one other author, the R tutorial. > > I would like to see the development of a standard set of documentation for future live-cds and see about getting them translated into other languages thus enabling non-english venues with a live cd. Perhaps doing it in French could be the next translation. Comments? > I would love to see a french one, something we can show on french booth. How can I start ? -- Guillaume. <!-- http://abs.traduc.org/ http://lfs.traduc.org/ http://traduc.postgresqlfr.org/ -->
Bonjour Guillaume, Do you have a copy of the CD with the documentation? I would say the first step is to acquire the the french language version of the postgresql pages and install them onto the CD. The next step is to configure the bookmarks on the browser for a franco version. We then have to configure the boot up sequence to automatically choose the correct set of documents when the live CD boots up i.e. synchronize the locale with the language options currently available with the CDs at boot up time. On Monday 10 July 2006 17:42, Guillaume LELARGE wrote: > Robert Bernier a écrit : > > [...] > > > >>> There's a lot of documentation that I've added in added to the > >>> standard reference documentation........... > I would love to see a french one, something we can show on french booth. > How can I start ?
Robert Bernier a écrit : > Bonjour Guillaume, > > Do you have a copy of the CD with the documentation? > I just grab one. I mounted it, mounted the squashfs file system and found the html files (toc, main, documentation) and the folders (articles and ebook). > I would say the first step is to acquire the the french language version of the postgresql pages and install them onto the CD. The next step is to configure the bookmarks on the browser for a franco version. > > We then have to configure the boot up sequence to automatically choose the correct set of documents when the live CD boots up i.e. synchronize the locale with the language options currently available with the CDs at boot up time. > OK, I'm gonna do this. Let's begin with the html files... -- Guillaume. <!-- http://abs.traduc.org/ http://lfs.traduc.org/ http://traduc.postgresqlfr.org/ -->