It works fine for me. I would suggest using
http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ or something similar to check in the
future.


-- 
Adam Alkins || http://www.rasadam.com


On 14 June 2010 22:45, M. Bashir Al-Noimi <admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net> wrote:

>  Hi folks,
>
>
>  I tried to visit enterprisedb.com yesterday and today but I couldn't the
> browser gave me this error message:
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>   Network Error (tcp_error)
>
>    A communication error occurred: "Operation timed out"   The Web Server
> may be down, too busy, or experiencing other problems preventing it from
> responding to requests. You may wish to try again at a later time.
> ------------------------------
>
> I tried to visit it from another ISP but it gave me same error!
>
>
>  So I'm wondering does enterprisedb.com down?
>
>
>
>  --
> Best Regards
> Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
> My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net
>
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general(at)postgresql(dot)org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-general
>
>

Hi folks,


I tried to visit enterprisedb.com yesterday and today but I couldn't the 
browser gave me this error message:


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Network Error (tcp_error)

A communication error occurred: "Operation timed out"
The Web Server may be down, too busy, or experiencing other problems 
preventing it from responding to requests. You may wish to try again at 
a later time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I tried to visit it from another ISP but it gave me same error!


So I'm wondering does enterprisedb.com down?



-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

I ran the IP on http://whatismyipaddress.com/blacklist-check and it is  
not blacklisted.


On Jun 15, 2010, at 6:53 AM, M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:

> Now I wondering does postgresql forbids my country or not?, is it  
> open source or something else?

M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
> What's going on!
> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ gave me the following stupid message:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> downforeveryoneorjustme error message
> 
> 
>   Forbidden
> 
> Your client does not have permission to get URL |/| from this server. 
> (Client IP address: 213.178.224.178)
> 
> You are accessing this page from a forbidden country.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> and enterprisedb.com <http://enterprisedb.com> still unavailable!
> 
> Now I wondering does postgresql forbids my country or not?, is it open 
> source or something else?

I suppose we are going to have to guess your country;  this web site,
http://www.ip-adress.com/ip_tracer/213.178.224.178, says it is Syria.

Certainly Postgres is available for everyone, but it seems EnterpriseDB
(and http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/) are not able to serve that IP
block, which is a problem.

I have moved this email to the Postgres www list, and changed the
subject line.  We should have more information for you soon.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + None of us is going to be here forever. +

John Gage wrote:
> I ran the IP on http://whatismyipaddress.com/blacklist-check and it is 
> not blacklisted.
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 6:53 AM, M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
>
>> Now I wondering does postgresql forbids my country or not?, is it 
>> open source or something else?
>
>

maybe an ISP between point A and point B is blocking Syria, they are 
still on the US Government's technical embargo list, aren't they?

May be you will be able to get one that is not blocked from the ftp sites 
list? I don't know if the rules applicable to main server are 
automatically applied to the mirror sites too.
http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/download/mirrors-ftp
Regards,
Jayadevan





DISCLAIMER: 

"The information in this e-mail and any attachment is intended only for 
the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or 
privileged material. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly 
contact the sender and destroy all copies of the original communication. 
IBS makes no warranty, express or implied, nor guarantees the accuracy, 
adequacy or completeness of the information contained in this email or any 
attachment and is not liable for any errors, defects, omissions, viruses 
or for resultant loss or damage, if any, direct or indirect."

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 11:21 PM, M. Bashir Al-Noimi <admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net> wrote:
> So I wish to get a clarification about this issue, does pg forbids my
> country? is it still open source?

Can you get to postgresql.org?  Cause that is pg.  enterprisedb is NOT
pg, it is a commercial company that provides a lot of services for the
pg community.  Not the same thing.

What's going on!
http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ gave me the following stupid message:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
downforeveryoneorjustme error message


  Forbidden

Your client does not have permission to get URL |/| from this server. 
(Client IP address: 213.178.224.178)

You are accessing this page from a forbidden country.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
and enterprisedb.com <http://enterprisedb.com> still unavailable!

Now I wondering does postgresql forbids my country or not?, is it open 
source or something else?



On 15/06/2010 04:47 ?, Adam Alkins wrote:
> It works fine for me. I would suggest using 
> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ or something similar to check in 
> the future.
>
>
> -- 
> Adam Alkins || http://www.rasadam.com
>
>
> On 14 June 2010 22:45, M. Bashir Al-Noimi <admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net 
> <mailto:admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net>> wrote:
>
>     Hi folks,
>
>
>     I tried to visit enterprisedb.com <http://enterprisedb.com>
>     yesterday and today but I couldn't the browser gave me this error
>     message:
>
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Network Error (tcp_error)
>
>     A communication error occurred: "Operation timed out"
>     The Web Server may be down, too busy, or experiencing other
>     problems preventing it from responding to requests. You may wish
>     to try again at a later time.
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     I tried to visit it from another ISP but it gave me same error!
>
>
>     So I'm wondering does enterprisedb.com <http://enterprisedb.com> down?
>
>
>

-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On 15/06/2010 06:00 ?, John Gage wrote:
> I ran the IP on http://whatismyipaddress.com/blacklist-check and it is 
> not blacklisted.
Actually I _*suspect*_ that pg takes same policy of sf.net where sf.net 
forbids open source projects to specific countries as mentioned in the 
following links (for that I migrated  my projects from sf.net to 
Launchpad <https://launchpad.net/> because sf.net works against FOSS):
http://arabcrunch.com/2010/01/following-clintons-internet-freedom-speech-us-based-sourceforge-blocked-syria-sudan-iran-korea-cuba-is-open-source-still-really-open.html
http://sourceforge.net/blog/clarifying-sourceforgenets-denial-of-site-access-for-certain-persons-in-accordance-with-us-law/
http://sourceforge.net/blog/some-good-news-sourceforge-removes-blanket-blocking/

So I wish to get a clarification about this issue, does pg forbids my 
country? is it still open source?

-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On 15/06/2010 06:15 ?, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
>    
>> What's going on!
>> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ gave me the following stupid message:
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> downforeveryoneorjustme error message
>>
>>
>>    Forbidden
>>
>> Your client does not have permission to get URL |/| from this server.
>> (Client IP address: 213.178.224.178)
>>
>> You are accessing this page from a forbidden country.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> and enterprisedb.com<http://enterprisedb.com>  still unavailable!
>>
>> Now I wondering does postgresql forbids my country or not?, is it open
>> source or something else?
>>      
> I suppose we are going to have to guess your country;  this web site,
> http://www.ip-adress.com/ip_tracer/213.178.224.178, says it is Syria.
>
> Certainly Postgres is available for everyone, but it seems EnterpriseDB
> (and http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/) are not able to serve that IP
> block, which is a problem.
>
> I have moved this email to the Postgres www list, and changed the
> subject line.  We should have more information for you soon.
>
>    
Thanks, I'm waiting for your reply.

-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

All the mirrors work except the enterprisedb.com itself.

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:50 AM, Jayadevan M
<Jayadevan(dot)Maymala(at)ibsplc(dot)com>wrote:

> May be you will be able to get one that is not blocked from the ftp sites
> list? I don't know if the rules applicable to main server are
> automatically applied to the mirror sites too.
> http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/download/mirrors-ftp
> Regards,
> Jayadevan
>
>
>
>
>
> DISCLAIMER:
>
> "The information in this e-mail and any attachment is intended only for
> the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or
> privileged material. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly
> contact the sender and destroy all copies of the original communication.
> IBS makes no warranty, express or implied, nor guarantees the accuracy,
> adequacy or completeness of the information contained in this email or any
> attachment and is not liable for any errors, defects, omissions, viruses
> or for resultant loss or damage, if any, direct or indirect."
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 07:21, M. Bashir Al-Noimi <admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net> wrote:
> On 15/06/2010 06:00 ص, John Gage wrote:
>
> I ran the IP on http://whatismyipaddress.com/blacklist-check and it is not
> blacklisted.
>
> Actually I suspect that pg takes same policy of sf.net where sf.net forbids
> open source projects to specific countries as mentioned in the following
> links (for that I migrated  my projects from sf.net to Launchpad because
> sf.net works against FOSS):
> http://arabcrunch.com/2010/01/following-clintons-internet-freedom-speech-us-based-sourceforge-blocked-syria-sudan-iran-korea-cuba-is-open-source-still-really-open.html
> http://sourceforge.net/blog/clarifying-sourceforgenets-denial-of-site-access-for-certain-persons-in-accordance-with-us-law/
> http://sourceforge.net/blog/some-good-news-sourceforge-removes-blanket-blocking/
>
> So I wish to get a clarification about this issue, does pg forbids my
> country? is it still open source?

PostgreSQL does *not* forbid your country. As you showed further down
this thread, you can reach the main website and mirror systems, so
that's not where the problem is. But you wanted a statement on it.

This is, however, the second report in just a couple of days of people
not being able to reach the windows downloads that are hosted by
EnterpriseDB (I assume you are looking for the Windows downloads - if
you're actually looking for EnterpriseDB's commercial product, you
need to talk to them and not us). This indicates a real problem.

Can someone from EnterpriseDB (hi, Dave!) verify with their provider
that they do *not* intentionally or unintentionally prevent people
from downloading the software based on their location?

Unfortunately, there are no backup download locations available for
the windows installers, but you can always download the source off the
postgresql.org mirrors and build your own binaries.


-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 06:15, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
> M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
>> What's going on!
>> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ gave me the following stupid message:
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> downforeveryoneorjustme error message
>>
>>
>>   Forbidden
>>
>> Your client does not have permission to get URL |/| from this server.
>> (Client IP address: 213.178.224.178)
>>
>> You are accessing this page from a forbidden country.
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> and enterprisedb.com <http://enterprisedb.com> still unavailable!
>>
>> Now I wondering does postgresql forbids my country or not?, is it open
>> source or something else?
>
> I suppose we are going to have to guess your country;  this web site,
> http://www.ip-adress.com/ip_tracer/213.178.224.178, says it is Syria.
>
> Certainly Postgres is available for everyone, but it seems EnterpriseDB
> (and http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/) are not able to serve that IP
> block, which is a problem.
>
> I have moved this email to the Postgres www list, and changed the
> subject line.  We should have more information for you soon.

This is the second report of this issue this week, the previous one
being a user in South Korea. It was fixed by Dave that time - but I'm
detecting a pattern here :-) We don't want to get tihs stuff fixed on
a case by case basis - can we verify that there is no generic block in
place, please?


-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

Magnus Hagander wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 06:15, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>> M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
>>> What's going on!
>>> http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/ gave me the following stupid message:
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> downforeveryoneorjustme error message
>>>
>>>
>>>   Forbidden
>>>
>>> Your client does not have permission to get URL |/| from this server.
>>> (Client IP address: 213.178.224.178)
>>>
>>> You are accessing this page from a forbidden country.
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> and enterprisedb.com <http://enterprisedb.com> still unavailable!
>>>
>>> Now I wondering does postgresql forbids my country or not?, is it open
>>> source or something else?
>> I suppose we are going to have to guess your country;  this web site,
>> http://www.ip-adress.com/ip_tracer/213.178.224.178, says it is Syria.
>>
>> Certainly Postgres is available for everyone, but it seems EnterpriseDB
>> (and http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/) are not able to serve that IP
>> block, which is a problem.
>>
>> I have moved this email to the Postgres www list, and changed the
>> subject line.  We should have more information for you soon.
> 
> This is the second report of this issue this week, the previous one
> being a user in South Korea. It was fixed by Dave that time - but I'm
> detecting a pattern here :-) We don't want to get tihs stuff fixed on
> a case by case basis - can we verify that there is no generic block in
> place, please?

yeah - We really can't discriminate against some of our users in that 
way(and we are not doing that on any of our other sites). If we cannot 
get this fixed in a generic way we really need to look into alternative 
ways - at least for people being affected by that - to get to the 
one-click installer.


Stefan

Thanks All, this thread moved now to another mailing list for discussing
this problem with EnterpriseDB folks (Bruce Momjian and others).


2010/6/15 Magnus Hagander <magnus(at)hagander(dot)net>

> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 07:21, M. Bashir Al-Noimi <admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net>
> wrote:
> > On 15/06/2010 06:00 ص, John Gage wrote:
> >
> > I ran the IP on http://whatismyipaddress.com/blacklist-check and it is
> not
> > blacklisted.
> >
> > Actually I suspect that pg takes same policy of sf.net where sf.netforbids
> > open source projects to specific countries as mentioned in the following
> > links (for that I migrated  my projects from sf.net to Launchpad because
> > sf.net works against FOSS):
> >
> http://arabcrunch.com/2010/01/following-clintons-internet-freedom-speech-us-based-sourceforge-blocked-syria-sudan-iran-korea-cuba-is-open-source-still-really-open.html
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/blog/clarifying-sourceforgenets-denial-of-site-access-for-certain-persons-in-accordance-with-us-law/
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/blog/some-good-news-sourceforge-removes-blanket-blocking/
> >
> > So I wish to get a clarification about this issue, does pg forbids my
> > country? is it still open source?
>
> PostgreSQL does *not* forbid your country. As you showed further down
> this thread, you can reach the main website and mirror systems, so
> that's not where the problem is. But you wanted a statement on it.
>
> This is, however, the second report in just a couple of days of people
> not being able to reach the windows downloads that are hosted by
> EnterpriseDB (I assume you are looking for the Windows downloads - if
> you're actually looking for EnterpriseDB's commercial product, you
> need to talk to them and not us). This indicates a real problem.
>
> Can someone from EnterpriseDB (hi, Dave!) verify with their provider
> that they do *not* intentionally or unintentionally prevent people
> from downloading the software based on their location?
>
> Unfortunately, there are no backup download locations available for
> the windows installers, but you can always download the source off the
> postgresql.org mirrors and build your own binaries.
>
>
> --
>  Magnus Hagander
>  Me: http://www.hagander.net/
>  Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
>



-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
<stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc> wrote:
> yeah - We really can't discriminate against some of our users in that
> way(and we are not doing that on any of our other sites). If we cannot get
> this fixed in a generic way we really need to look into alternative ways -
> at least for people being affected by that - to get to the one-click
> installer.

Well South Korea would have been obviously just a mistake. But I would
expect it to be an issue for any US company to server IPs in Syria,
North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Burma/Myanmar. Actually I don't know what
restrictions there would be for a product that isn't being sold but I
wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to be conservative and just not
serve those IPs at all.

For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
significantly.

-- 
greg

On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 13:16 +0100, Greg Stark wrote:
> Actually I don't know what restrictions there would be for a product
> that isn't being sold 

Maybe encryption related issues?
-- 
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
PostgreSQL Danışmanı/Consultant, Red Hat Certified Engineer
PostgreSQL RPM Repository: http://yum.pgrpms.org
Community: devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr
http://www.gunduz.org  Twitter: http://twitter.com/devrimgunduz

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 14:16, Greg Stark <gsstark(at)mit(dot)edu> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
> <stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc> wrote:
>> yeah - We really can't discriminate against some of our users in that
>> way(and we are not doing that on any of our other sites). If we cannot get
>> this fixed in a generic way we really need to look into alternative ways -
>> at least for people being affected by that - to get to the one-click
>> installer.
>
> Well South Korea would have been obviously just a mistake. But I would
> expect it to be an issue for any US company to server IPs in Syria,
> North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Burma/Myanmar. Actually I don't know what
> restrictions there would be for a product that isn't being sold but I
> wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to be conservative and just not
> serve those IPs at all.

If that is so, there needs to be a mirror that's not excluding these countries.


> For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
> servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
> servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
> significantly.

The community doesn't host the mirrors, we just point to them. Aside
from what some poeple want it to be, linking is still legal AFAIK. It
is up to each individual mirror what they want to distribute. We've
never had issues with that before, and AFAIK nothing has changed
around this for many years.

-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Greg Stark <gsstark(at)mit(dot)edu> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
> <stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc> wrote:
>> yeah - We really can't discriminate against some of our users in that
>> way(and we are not doing that on any of our other sites). If we cannot get
>> this fixed in a generic way we really need to look into alternative ways -
>> at least for people being affected by that - to get to the one-click
>> installer.
>
> Well South Korea would have been obviously just a mistake. But I would
> expect it to be an issue for any US company to server IPs in Syria,
> North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Burma/Myanmar. Actually I don't know what
> restrictions there would be for a product that isn't being sold but I
> wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to be conservative and just not
> serve those IPs at all.
>
> For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
> servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
> servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
> significantly.

Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
are *extremely* harsh.

The situation is ridiculous I know - it's easy to get OpenSSL from any
number of places of course. As of this morning, we have people looking
into the legal issues to see if there is a way that we (EnterpriseDB
and the community) can make all our downloads available universally
without putting anyone at risk of prosecution. We're also talking to
other large organisations involved in Open Source to see if/how they
deal with this within the projects they work on.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 15:28, Dave Page <dpage(at)postgresql(dot)org> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Greg Stark <gsstark(at)mit(dot)edu> wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
>> <stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc> wrote:
>>> yeah - We really can't discriminate against some of our users in that
>>> way(and we are not doing that on any of our other sites). If we cannot get
>>> this fixed in a generic way we really need to look into alternative ways -
>>> at least for people being affected by that - to get to the one-click
>>> installer.
>>
>> Well South Korea would have been obviously just a mistake. But I would
>> expect it to be an issue for any US company to server IPs in Syria,
>> North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Burma/Myanmar. Actually I don't know what
>> restrictions there would be for a product that isn't being sold but I
>> wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to be conservative and just not
>> serve those IPs at all.
>>
>> For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
>> servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
>> servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
>> significantly.
>
> Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
> cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
> laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
> the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
> people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
> are *extremely* harsh.

Well, it only applies to the US, so all our mirrors outside of the US
should be fine, AFAIK. Nor does it apply to community members outside
the US, however they'd do anything about that.


> The situation is ridiculous I know - it's easy to get OpenSSL from any
> number of places of course. As of this morning, we have people looking
> into the legal issues to see if there is a way that we (EnterpriseDB
> and the community) can make all our downloads available universally
> without putting anyone at risk of prosecution. We're also talking to
> other large organisations involved in Open Source to see if/how they
> deal with this within the projects they work on.

AFAIK, open source *communities* don't generally do anything at all
about this. We can restrict access to any of our servers that run in
the US, but as long as there are mirrors and the licence is open,
anybody outside the US can just redistribute it. So it sounds like th
easy fix is to just mirror it onto the community mirror network.

-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

Magnus Hagander wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 15:28, Dave Page <dpage(at)postgresql(dot)org> wrote:
>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Greg Stark <gsstark(at)mit(dot)edu> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
>>> <stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc> wrote:
>>>> yeah - We really can't discriminate against some of our users in that
>>>> way(and we are not doing that on any of our other sites). If we cannot get
>>>> this fixed in a generic way we really need to look into alternative ways -
>>>> at least for people being affected by that - to get to the one-click
>>>> installer.
>>> Well South Korea would have been obviously just a mistake. But I would
>>> expect it to be an issue for any US company to server IPs in Syria,
>>> North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Burma/Myanmar. Actually I don't know what
>>> restrictions there would be for a product that isn't being sold but I
>>> wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to be conservative and just not
>>> serve those IPs at all.
>>>
>>> For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
>>> servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
>>> servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
>>> significantly.
>> Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
>> cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
>> laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
>> the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
>> people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
>> are *extremely* harsh.
> 
> Well, it only applies to the US, so all our mirrors outside of the US
> should be fine, AFAIK. Nor does it apply to community members outside
> the US, however they'd do anything about that.

exactly - and other large projects (like debian) who used to do a 
"non-US" mirror set stopped doing that ages ago (around the release of 
Sarge - 3.1)


> 
> 
>> The situation is ridiculous I know - it's easy to get OpenSSL from any
>> number of places of course. As of this morning, we have people looking
>> into the legal issues to see if there is a way that we (EnterpriseDB
>> and the community) can make all our downloads available universally
>> without putting anyone at risk of prosecution. We're also talking to
>> other large organisations involved in Open Source to see if/how they
>> deal with this within the projects they work on.
> 
> AFAIK, open source *communities* don't generally do anything at all
> about this. We can restrict access to any of our servers that run in
> the US, but as long as there are mirrors and the licence is open,
> anybody outside the US can just redistribute it. So it sounds like th
> easy fix is to just mirror it onto the community mirror network.

yeah that seems like a very simple solution, just upload the stuff to 
the mirror network and provide an "if the above link to download fails 
with an error try here" on the main website.


Stefan

Jayadevan M wrote:
> May be you will be able to get one that is not blocked from the ftp sites 
> list? I don't know if the rules applicable to main server are 
> automatically applied to the mirror sites too.
> http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/download/mirrors-ftp

The EnterpriseDB binaries are not on the community ftp servers, and
can't be because some of the community servers are in the USA, and those
USA servers might not block embargoed countries.  The on-click
installers are unique because they embed OpenSSL, while things like PRMs
use the OpenSSL library in the operating system.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Magnus Hagander <magnus(at)hagander(dot)net> wrote:

>> The situation is ridiculous I know - it's easy to get OpenSSL from any
>> number of places of course. As of this morning, we have people looking
>> into the legal issues to see if there is a way that we (EnterpriseDB
>> and the community) can make all our downloads available universally
>> without putting anyone at risk of prosecution. We're also talking to
>> other large organisations involved in Open Source to see if/how they
>> deal with this within the projects they work on.
>
> AFAIK, open source *communities* don't generally do anything at all
> about this. We can restrict access to any of our servers that run in
> the US, but as long as there are mirrors and the licence is open,
> anybody outside the US can just redistribute it. So it sounds like th
> easy fix is to just mirror it onto the community mirror network.

+1

I'm going to ping Eben Moglen (lawyer at the software freedom law
center) about this on our behalf. The few people I've talked to who
have had to deal with similar issues think that crypto built from open
standards no longer are subject to prosecution, and whether the
software originated in the US or not, we are free to redistribute.

-selena

-- 
http://chesnok.com/daily - me

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 8:25 AM, Selena Deckelmann
<selenamarie(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:

> I'm going to ping Eben Moglen (lawyer at the software freedom law
> center) about this on our behalf. The few people I've talked to who
> have had to deal with similar issues think that crypto built from open
> standards no longer are subject to prosecution, and whether the
> software originated in the US or not, we are free to redistribute.

I've sent a message to Eben, and looked up a few things:

http://sourceforge.net/blog/clarifying-sourceforgenets-denial-of-site-access-for-certain-persons-in-accordance-with-us-law/
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/2010/mar/12/new-export-rules-promote-internet-freedom/

Will forward if I get an answer back from SFLC.

-selena

-- 
http://chesnok.com/daily - me

Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
> > AFAIK, open source *communities* don't generally do anything at all
> > about this. We can restrict access to any of our servers that run in
> > the US, but as long as there are mirrors and the licence is open,
> > anybody outside the US can just redistribute it. So it sounds like th
> > easy fix is to just mirror it onto the community mirror network.
> 
> yeah that seems like a very simple solution, just upload the stuff to 
> the mirror network and provide an "if the above link to download fails 
> with an error try here" on the main website.

First, to clarify, this only applies to the one-click installers because
they embed the OpenSSL library into the installer, unlike, for example,
the RPMs which use the operating system copy of OpenSSL.

We have managed to avoid all this in the past because the community only
distributed the software (not binaries) for years, but the one-click
installer is forcing us to address this issue.

Second, the one-click installers are produced by a USA company
(EnterpriseDB), which means the company cannot facilitate distribution
of the one-click installers to embargoed countries, and US citizens and
people working for US companies cannot either.  That severely limits our
options because I assume USA companies must also prevent their software
from being placed on servers that allow downloads from embargoed
countries, and US citizens cannot facilitate this either.

Now, if the binaries were created in Sweden (and assume Sweden has no
embargoes), we could place the binaries on all the servers _except_ USA
servers.  However, since the binaries were created by a USA company, I
don't think we have that option.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + None of us is going to be here forever. +

On 15/06/2010 02:16 ?, Greg Stark wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
> <stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc>  wrote:
>    
>> yeah - We really can't discriminate against some of our users in that
>> way(and we are not doing that on any of our other sites). If we cannot get
>> this fixed in a generic way we really need to look into alternative ways -
>> at least for people being affected by that - to get to the one-click
>> installer.
>>      
> Well South Korea would have been obviously just a mistake. But I would
> expect it to be an issue for any US company to server IPs in Syria,
> North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Burma/Myanmar.
This issue found in some cases not all, for example we can buy from 
Microsoft products and many other websites where we can't download or 
contribute in MySQL, sf.net, OpenOffice or even reading specific 
articles at IBM although there are some old contributors from Syria and 
the other blacklisted countries in many open source projects and many 
many projects owned by non-American people or even Americans believe in 
freedom and don't agree with forbidding policy for open source stuffs.

> Actually I don't know what
> restrictions there would be for a product that isn't being sold but I
> wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to be conservative and just not
> serve those IPs at all.
>    
OK if they wanted to be conservative why they accept payments from these 
IPs? why they allow users of theses IPs to use US e-mail services? why 
they allow us to use facebook or Twitter where don't for scientific 
articles? where they don't allow us to just read a non-atomic article?

OOOH I got, this is the modern democracy! Thanks a lot Mr. Obama & Mrs. 
Clinton they want to liberate us from communist or socialistic dictators 
where they didn't worst than them.

> For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
> servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
> servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
> significantly.
>    
No I think the problem can be solved easily just make mirrors outside US.

For example before moving some open source projects we asked Launchpad 
<https://launchpad.net/> admins if they apply US rule for blacklist 
counties and they answered No the open source must be opened for the 
humanity not for specific peoples this is clear principle (their servers 
in UK). Same answer I got from BerliOS <http://developer.berlios.de/> 
(in Germany). For that many open source projects decided to move outside 
sf.net (US server) to GNA (French), Launchpad <https://launchpad.net/>, 
BerliOS <http://developer.berlios.de/> and many other open source 
hosting services.


-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On 15/06/2010 03:18 م, Devrim GÜNDÜZ wrote:
> On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 13:16 +0100, Greg Stark wrote:
>    
>> Actually I don't know what restrictions there would be for a product
>> that isn't being sold
>>      
> Maybe encryption related issues?
>    
Yes Devrim

-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On 15/06/2010 03:28 م, Dave Page wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Greg Stark<gsstark(at)mit(dot)edu>  wrote:
>    
>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:58 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
>> <stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc>  wrote:
>>      
>>> yeah - We really can't discriminate against some of our users in that
>>> way(and we are not doing that on any of our other sites). If we cannot get
>>> this fixed in a generic way we really need to look into alternative ways -
>>> at least for people being affected by that - to get to the one-click
>>> installer.
>>>        
>> Well South Korea would have been obviously just a mistake. But I would
>> expect it to be an issue for any US company to server IPs in Syria,
>> North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Burma/Myanmar. Actually I don't know what
>> restrictions there would be for a product that isn't being sold but I
>> wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to be conservative and just not
>> serve those IPs at all.
>>
>> For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
>> servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
>> servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
>> significantly.
>>      
> Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
> cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
> laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
> the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
> people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
> are *extremely* harsh.
>    
I want to ask you a tiny question, do you agree with this policy? if yes 
go ahead and forbid your projects but not others projects (my friend 
from Spain be came crazy when I told him that I can access the SVN 
because US blocked my IP).

> The situation is ridiculous I know - it's easy to get OpenSSL from any
> number of places of course. As of this morning, we have people looking
> into the legal issues to see if there is a way that we (EnterpriseDB
> and the community) can make all our downloads available universally
> without putting anyone at risk of prosecution. We're also talking to
> other large organisations involved in Open Source to see if/how they
> deal with this within the projects they work on.
>    
Thanks a lot for your efforts.


-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On 15/06/2010 05:25 م, Selena Deckelmann wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Magnus Hagander<magnus(at)hagander(dot)net>  wrote:
>
>    
>>> The situation is ridiculous I know - it's easy to get OpenSSL from any
>>> number of places of course. As of this morning, we have people looking
>>> into the legal issues to see if there is a way that we (EnterpriseDB
>>> and the community) can make all our downloads available universally
>>> without putting anyone at risk of prosecution. We're also talking to
>>> other large organisations involved in Open Source to see if/how they
>>> deal with this within the projects they work on.
>>>        
>> AFAIK, open source *communities* don't generally do anything at all
>> about this. We can restrict access to any of our servers that run in
>> the US, but as long as there are mirrors and the licence is open,
>> anybody outside the US can just redistribute it. So it sounds like th
>> easy fix is to just mirror it onto the community mirror network.
>>      
> +1
>
> I'm going to ping Eben Moglen (lawyer at the software freedom law
> center) about this on our behalf. The few people I've talked to who
> have had to deal with similar issues think that crypto built from open
> standards no longer are subject to prosecution, and whether the
> software originated in the US or not, we are free to redistribute.
>
> -selena
>    
Nice guys, that's good news


-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

Hi!

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:35 AM, M. Bashir Al-Noimi <admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net> wrote:

> OOOH I got, this is the modern democracy!

While I sympathize with expressions of sarcasm around this issue --
let's keep this particular discussion on the topic of whether or not
the 1-click installers can be mirrored.

Using a Bcc to reduce the impulse to respond other than directly to individuals.

-selena

-- 
http://chesnok.com/daily - me

M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
> > Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
> > cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
> > laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
> > the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
> > people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
> > are *extremely* harsh.
> >    
> I want to ask you a tiny question, do you agree with this policy? if yes 
> go ahead and forbid your projects but not others projects (my friend 
> from Spain be came crazy when I told him that I can access the SVN 
> because US blocked my IP).

To clarify, the source code can be downloaded from anywhere.  It is only
the one-click installer that embeds OpenSSL that is a problem. 

Technically the non-source code distributions of Postgres are produced
by external groups.  The community only distributes the source code,
though we provide links to the external groups, and we are working with
those groups to see if we can come up with a solution.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + None of us is going to be here forever. +

Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
> > servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
> > servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
> > significantly.
> 
> The community doesn't host the mirrors, we just point to them. Aside
> from what some poeple want it to be, linking is still legal AFAIK. It
> is up to each individual mirror what they want to distribute. We've
> never had issues with that before, and AFAIK nothing has changed
> around this for many years.

I don't think we want to be pushing embargoed data to mirrors and tell
them them have to worry about it;  that might lead to us losing mirrors
and mirrors hosters feeling abused by the community.  We would need to
contact every mirror where this might be a problem, explain the issue,
and let them decide if they want those files.

But again, does a USA company have to try to prevent or report such
mirrors --- I have no idea.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + None of us is going to be here forever. +

On 06/15/2010 07:58 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
>>> Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
>>> cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
>>> laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
>>> the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
>>> people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
>>> are *extremely* harsh.
>>>
>> I want to ask you a tiny question, do you agree with this policy? if yes
>> go ahead and forbid your projects but not others projects (my friend
>> from Spain be came crazy when I told him that I can access the SVN
>> because US blocked my IP).
>
> To clarify, the source code can be downloaded from anywhere.  It is only
> the one-click installer that embeds OpenSSL that is a problem.
>
> Technically the non-source code distributions of Postgres are produced
> by external groups.  The community only distributes the source code,
> though we provide links to the external groups, and we are working with
> those groups to see if we can come up with a solution.

well we have pgcrypto in the main source tarball and we are able to 
distribute solaris/linux and other binaries through our mirror network 
just fine (and we managed to distribute the old MSI based windows 
installer als) so it seems easy enough to do the same for the one-click...


Stefan

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
<stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc> wrote:
>> Technically the non-source code distributions of Postgres are produced
>> by external groups.  The community only distributes the source code,
>> though we provide links to the external groups, and we are working with
>> those groups to see if we can come up with a solution.
>
> well we have pgcrypto in the main source tarball and we are able to
> distribute solaris/linux and other binaries through our mirror network just
> fine (and we managed to distribute the old MSI based windows installer als)
> so it seems easy enough to do the same for the one-click...

For what it's worth I'm unclear that this is purely a problem with
crypto. It's illegal for a US company to do business in these
companies even if they're just selling pencils. In the case of crypto
they had to take *extra* precautions in the past such as getting
agreements from recipients that they wouldn't redistribute the crypto
to embargoed countries.

I think the crypto situation has simplified in recent years but the
general embargo is the same as it ever was. The embargo doesn't affect
individuals communicating but when it comes to shipping binaries
produced by a US company I'm not clear what the rules are or whether
there are any restrictions. I'm sure EDB will figure out what it's
allowed to do and we should just wait to find out whether we can work
with whatever they're allowed to do.

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
<stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc> wrote:
> well we have pgcrypto in the main source tarball and we are able to
> distribute solaris/linux and other binaries through our mirror network just
> fine (and we managed to distribute the old MSI based windows installer als)
> so it seems easy enough to do the same for the one-click...

You mean noone has complained yet. The fact is, we *have* had
face-to-face contact from US authorities on this matter, reminding us
(in not too subtle terms) that it is not legal to distribute crypto
code to embargoed countries, and requiring us to put in place
preventative measures. Those laws do apply to any people or servers in
the US, not just EnterpriseDB - we're just easier to intimidate in
person than the community.

Now, that was a few years ago, and some people are now saying that
exceptions are in place for Open Source software. We have folks
looking into this, and if we're given the go-ahead to remove the
blocks, we'll do so ASAP.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

> Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
> cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
> laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
> the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
> people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
> are *extremely* harsh.

Speaking from having dealt with this at Sun: it's not just crypto code.
 It's any goods at all, paid or not.  EDB cannot remove their block.
Welcome to the Brave New World.

The answer would be for the community to mirror the one-click installers
on a non-US server.  This should, preferably, be done by community
members who neither work for EDB nor are Americans and without any
active cooperation from EDB.

Of course, if someone wanted to download from one of those countries and
did so via a relay machine in a non-embargoed country, we would have no
way to detect that.

-- 
                                  -- Josh Berkus
                                     PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
                                     http://www.pgexperts.com

On 06/15/2010 08:46 PM, Dave Page wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 6:36 PM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
> <stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc>  wrote:
>> well we have pgcrypto in the main source tarball and we are able to
>> distribute solaris/linux and other binaries through our mirror network just
>> fine (and we managed to distribute the old MSI based windows installer als)
>> so it seems easy enough to do the same for the one-click...
>
> You mean noone has complained yet. The fact is, we *have* had
> face-to-face contact from US authorities on this matter, reminding us
> (in not too subtle terms) that it is not legal to distribute crypto
> code to embargoed countries, and requiring us to put in place
> preventative measures. Those laws do apply to any people or servers in
> the US, not just EnterpriseDB - we're just easier to intimidate in
> person than the community.
>
> Now, that was a few years ago, and some people are now saying that
> exceptions are in place for Open Source software. We have folks
> looking into this, and if we're given the go-ahead to remove the
> blocks, we'll do so ASAP.

well i talked with the debian people on that and I got the following bit:


http://www.debian.org/legal/cryptoinmain

which states: "Under the new US Regulations, not only the open source, 
but also the compiled executable software derived from open source, is 
eligible for export under the same conditions as the open source itself, 
provided that the compiled executable is available without restriction 
and free of charge. "

and also a lot of other very interesting stuff on how to deal with this 
mess.



Stefan

M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
> On 15/06/2010 07:58 ?, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
> >    
> >>> Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
> >>> cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
> >>> laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
> >>> the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
> >>> people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
> >>> are *extremely* harsh.
> >>>
> >>>        
> >> I want to ask you a tiny question, do you agree with this policy? if yes
> >> go ahead and forbid your projects but not others projects (my friend
> >> from Spain be came crazy when I told him that I can access the SVN
> >> because US blocked my IP).
> >>      
> > To clarify, the source code can be downloaded from anywhere.  It is only
> > the one-click installer that embeds OpenSSL that is a problem.
> >
> > Technically the non-source code distributions of Postgres are produced
> > by external groups.  The community only distributes the source code,
> > though we provide links to the external groups, and we are working with
> > those groups to see if we can come up with a solution.
> >
> >    
> To be clear when I was using kubuntu I didn't face this issue because I 
> was free to download my files from many repositories all around the 
> world but when I tried to use pg on Windows the case changed thus I 
> faced blocking issue.

Oh, Kubuntu.  In the short term then you can use the Ubuntu PG packages
--- they work just fine.  Under Administration, choose Synaptic Package
Manager, and type "PostgreSQL"  in the "Quick Search" box at the top.  I
think the first link is the one you want.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 1:21 AM, M. Bashir Al-Noimi <admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net> wrote:
> So I wish to get a clarification about this issue, does pg forbids my
> country? is it still open source?

enterprisedb.com != postgres open source project.  postgres as far as
i know has no restrictions on who may use it anywhere in the universe
as long as they abide by the license.

On 15/06/2010 08:02 م, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Magnus Hagander wrote:
>    
>>> For the community it might be tricky to solve since many of the
>>> servers are hosted or sponsored by US organizations. Having some
>>> servers with different rules than others might complicate matters
>>> significantly.
>>>        
>> The community doesn't host the mirrors, we just point to them. Aside
>> from what some poeple want it to be, linking is still legal AFAIK. It
>> is up to each individual mirror what they want to distribute. We've
>> never had issues with that before, and AFAIK nothing has changed
>> around this for many years.
>>      
> I don't think we want to be pushing embargoed data to mirrors and tell
> them them have to worry about it;  that might lead to us losing mirrors
> and mirrors hosters feeling abused by the community.  We would need to
> contact every mirror where this might be a problem, explain the issue,
> and let them decide if they want those files.
>
> But again, does a USA company have to try to prevent or report such
> mirrors --- I have no idea.
>
>    
Personally I asked BerliOS and Launchpad they don't have any problem 
with US rules. you can ask them too.

-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On 15/06/2010 07:58 ?, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> M. Bashir Al-Noimi wrote:
>    
>>> Greg is entirely correct. We cannot export or facilitate the export of
>>> cryto code to embargoed countries, such as Syria due to US export
>>> laws. This doesn't just apply to EnterpriseDB of course, it applies to
>>> the community as well, either where our servers are in the US, or the
>>> people working on them are in the US. The penalties for ignoring this
>>> are *extremely* harsh.
>>>
>>>        
>> I want to ask you a tiny question, do you agree with this policy? if yes
>> go ahead and forbid your projects but not others projects (my friend
>> from Spain be came crazy when I told him that I can access the SVN
>> because US blocked my IP).
>>      
> To clarify, the source code can be downloaded from anywhere.  It is only
> the one-click installer that embeds OpenSSL that is a problem.
>
> Technically the non-source code distributions of Postgres are produced
> by external groups.  The community only distributes the source code,
> though we provide links to the external groups, and we are working with
> those groups to see if we can come up with a solution.
>
>    
To be clear when I was using kubuntu I didn't face this issue because I 
was free to download my files from many repositories all around the 
world but when I tried to use pg on Windows the case changed thus I 
faced blocking issue.

-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
>
> Speaking from having dealt with this at Sun: it's not just crypto code.
>  It's any goods at all, paid or not.  EDB cannot remove their block.
> Welcome to the Brave New World.

Oh, that would make more sense. I've been reading the government info
on registering crypto downloads, but that seems to be a requirement
for any export, not just to embargoed countries, which didn't tally up
with what I'm told the feds required of us.

> The answer would be for the community to mirror the one-click installers
> on a non-US server.  This should, preferably, be done by community
> members who neither work for EDB nor are Americans and without any
> active cooperation from EDB.

And would need to be on a server other than ftp.postgresql.org.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

On tis, 2010-06-15 at 16:07 +0200, Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
> > Well, it only applies to the US, so all our mirrors outside of the
> US
> > should be fine, AFAIK. Nor does it apply to community members
> outside
> > the US, however they'd do anything about that.
> 
> exactly - and other large projects (like debian) who used to do a 
> "non-US" mirror set stopped doing that ages ago (around the release
> of 
> Sarge - 3.1)

Yeah, but they electronically register every piece of software they
distribute with the US Department of Whatever as potentially containing
crypto material.  Which is quite different from not doing anything about
it.

Hello,

> The EnterpriseDB binaries are not on the community ftp servers, and
> can't be because some of the community servers are in the USA, and those
> USA servers might not block embargoed countries. 
Thanks for the clarification. We are in a very early stage of evaluating 
EnterpriseDB for our product and the information may have some relevance. 
So EnterpriseDB products can't be provided to clients based in embargoed 
countries?

Regards,
Jayadevan






DISCLAIMER: 

"The information in this e-mail and any attachment is intended only for 
the person to whom it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or 
privileged material. If you have received this e-mail in error, kindly 
contact the sender and destroy all copies of the original communication. 
IBS makes no warranty, express or implied, nor guarantees the accuracy, 
adequacy or completeness of the information contained in this email or any 
attachment and is not liable for any errors, defects, omissions, viruses 
or for resultant loss or damage, if any, direct or indirect."

Jayadevan M wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> > The EnterpriseDB binaries are not on the community ftp servers, and
> > can't be because some of the community servers are in the USA, and those
> > USA servers might not block embargoed countries. 

> Thanks for the clarification. We are in a very early stage of evaluating 
> EnterpriseDB for our product and the information may have some relevance. 
> So EnterpriseDB products can't be provided to clients based in embargoed 
> countries?

Uh, I don't know.  However, I talked to Dave Page today and he is making
progress on understanding how things can be done better, and Peter
mentioned that Debian is doing some things that look promising, so I
hope things will be improved soon.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 05:48, Jayadevan M <Jayadevan(dot)Maymala(at)ibsplc(dot)com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
>> The EnterpriseDB binaries are not on the community ftp servers, and
>> can't be because some of the community servers are in the USA, and those
>> USA servers might not block embargoed countries.
> Thanks for the clarification. We are in a very early stage of evaluating
> EnterpriseDB for our product and the information may have some relevance.
> So EnterpriseDB products can't be provided to clients based in embargoed
> countries?

From what I can tell, the EnterpriseDB products will not be provided,
no, because EnterpriseDB is a US company and bound by US laws.

The opensource PostgreSQL product - which happen to have it's win32
installers distributed by EnterpriseDB and thus blocked - is
definitely available. If you require support or consultancy around it
you will probably need to find a non-US company for that, but there
are plenty of those around both in Europe and elsewhere. Only the
installer is the issue there.

-- 
 Magnus Hagander
 Me: http://www.hagander.net/
 Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

Dave Page wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
>> Speaking from having dealt with this at Sun: it's not just crypto code.
>>  It's any goods at all, paid or not.  EDB cannot remove their block.
>> Welcome to the Brave New World.
> 
> Oh, that would make more sense. I've been reading the government info
> on registering crypto downloads, but that seems to be a requirement
> for any export, not just to embargoed countries, which didn't tally up
> with what I'm told the feds required of us.

well have you looked at the debian link I posted? - we should be able to 
get a similiar setup going if we really need to.

> 
>> The answer would be for the community to mirror the one-click installers
>> on a non-US server.  This should, preferably, be done by community
>> members who neither work for EDB nor are Americans and without any
>> active cooperation from EDB.
> 
> And would need to be on a server other than ftp.postgresql.org.

that should be doable I guess.


Stefan

On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Stefan Kaltenbrunner
<stefan(at)kaltenbrunner(dot)cc> wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Speaking from having dealt with this at Sun: it's not just crypto code.
>>>  It's any goods at all, paid or not.  EDB cannot remove their block.
>>> Welcome to the Brave New World.
>>
>> Oh, that would make more sense. I've been reading the government info
>> on registering crypto downloads, but that seems to be a requirement
>> for any export, not just to embargoed countries, which didn't tally up
>> with what I'm told the feds required of us.
>
> well have you looked at the debian link I posted? - we should be able to get
> a similiar setup going if we really need to.

Yes, but that's about exporting crypto software in general, which as
we've established can be done simply by registering the exports via
email. There's an overriding blanket ban on exporting *anything* to
the handful of embargoed countries, as Josh B pointed out.

In any case, our VP Finance is setting up a conference call with the
specialist lawyers we used in the past for this, so we can understand
the issues properly and figure out what we can do legally. We hope to
do that today or tomorrow and I'll report back as soon as possible.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

Hi again,

I just want to know is there any progress in blocking issue?

until now I noticed that you didn't get a solution for it, is it true?


-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 1:07 AM, M. Bashir Al-Noimi <admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net> wrote:
> Hi again,
>
> I just want to know is there any progress in blocking issue?
>
> until now I noticed that you didn't get a solution for it, is it true?

I had a conference call yesterday with a lawyer who specialises in
export control and had worked with us in the past on such issues. He
basically said that regardless of any crypto related restrictions, it
is illegal to export, or facilitate the export of anything from the US
to any embargoed countries, which are currently Syria, Iran, North
Korea, Sudan and Cuba.

In practice, this means that:

- No one from a US company such as EnterpriseDB can make the
installers available to you, no matter where they are based, without
putting the company and possibly themselves at risk of prosecution.

- No community members in the US can make the installers available to
you without putting themselves at risk of prosecution.

- No community members outside the US can intentionally make the
installers available to you on any servers in the US (which includes
the postgresql.org mirror network), without putting themselves at risk
of prosecution should they travel to the US.

- No community member with the ability to prevent it (i.e. because
they are a sysadmin) can knowingly allow the installers to be made
available to you by another person on servers within the US, without
putting themselves at risk of prosecution either in, or when entering
the US.

- Anyone giving advice or otherwise suggesting how you might get hold
of the installers may be facilitating export, and thus liable to
prosecution in or upon entering the US.

So unfortunately the advice we've received is essentially identical to
what Josh found when working for Sun, which is that there is nothing
that EnterpriseDB, or the community running postgresql.org can do to
help without risking severe penalties.

I don't agree that this is in any way morally right, but I'm sure you
understand that I and many others with ties to the US cannot take the
risk of helping you download the products.

-- 
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

Dave Page <dpage(at)pgadmin(dot)org> writes:
> So unfortunately the advice we've received is essentially identical to
> what Josh found when working for Sun, which is that there is nothing
> that EnterpriseDB, or the community running postgresql.org can do to
> help without risking severe penalties.

What's not apparent to me is why the one-click installers are any
different from the source code.  ISTM that if putting them on the
postgresql.org mirror network would be legally hazardous, then we
*already* have a problem.

Is it not sufficient to have mirror servers within the US block
connections from the embargoed countries?

			regards, tom lane

On 19/06/2010 03:12 ?, Dave Page wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 1:07 AM, M. Bashir Al-Noimi<admin(at)mbnoimi(dot)net>  wrote:
>    
>> Hi again,
>>
>> I just want to know is there any progress in blocking issue?
>>
>> until now I noticed that you didn't get a solution for it, is it true?
>>      
> I had a conference call yesterday with a lawyer who specialises in
> export control and had worked with us in the past on such issues. He
> basically said that regardless of any crypto related restrictions, it
> is illegal to export, or facilitate the export of anything from the US
> to any embargoed countries, which are currently Syria, Iran, North
> Korea, Sudan and Cuba.
>
> In practice, this means that:
>
> - No one from a US company such as EnterpriseDB can make the
> installers available to you, no matter where they are based, without
> putting the company and possibly themselves at risk of prosecution.
>
> - No community members in the US can make the installers available to
> you without putting themselves at risk of prosecution.
>
> - No community members outside the US can intentionally make the
> installers available to you on any servers in the US (which includes
> the postgresql.org mirror network), without putting themselves at risk
> of prosecution should they travel to the US.
>
> - No community member with the ability to prevent it (i.e. because
> they are a sysadmin) can knowingly allow the installers to be made
> available to you by another person on servers within the US, without
> putting themselves at risk of prosecution either in, or when entering
> the US.
>
> - Anyone giving advice or otherwise suggesting how you might get hold
> of the installers may be facilitating export, and thus liable to
> prosecution in or upon entering the US.
>
> So unfortunately the advice we've received is essentially identical to
> what Josh found when working for Sun, which is that there is nothing
> that EnterpriseDB, or the community running postgresql.org can do to
> help without risking severe penalties.
>
> I don't agree that this is in any way morally right, but I'm sure you
> understand that I and many others with ties to the US cannot take the
> risk of helping you download the products.
>    
Oh my god, the rules deal with community such as enterprise companies! 
I've some info about that before but I didn't expect that the rules are 
so strict.

I'd like to thank you a lot for your efforts you deal with situation in 
effective way so from my side I think you absolutely did what you've to 
do and more than that... thanks again.

Before ending my message I want to tell the following breaking news from 
yesterday which you may benefit from it in this issue.
All Syrian media talked about the an extraordinary visit of largest US 
companies to Syria
http://www.aitnews.com/news/12976.html

Unfortunately the article available in Arabic but I can give you the 
summary of it and you can translate it by Google translate service for 
full text translation.

Mr. Obama's administration will give the biggest US companies *special 
exceptions from US embargo on Syria* (Microsoft, Dell, CISCO, Symantec, 
Frieser and many others) so representatives of these companies met 
Syrian administrations and elite of Syrian businessmen from Aleppo 
(north city in Syria known as biggest Syrian city in industrial producing).

Although this situation is absolutely in the right direction but it 
forms many question marks about the reason of the embargo which 
basically done by Bush administration in the past.

How Obama's administration allows these companies to work while they 
blocking US community websites? why that companies got the except while 
other companies can't?

Bby the way Microsoft website -for example- never blocked at all while 
OpenOffice blocked as soon as Bush administration released the embargo! 
and all Syrians can update their Windows editions directly from 
Microsoft.com without any problem even we can visit Microsoft support 
system with community forums too.

Depending on that news I think you -maybe- find a solution for blocking 
issue specially if you compared your installer with Microsoft installers 
(you may ask the lawyers how Microsoft found a solution for that).


-- 
Best Regards
Muhammad Bashir Al-Noimi
My Blog: http://mbnoimi.net

Tom Lane wrote:
> Dave Page <dpage(at)pgadmin(dot)org> writes:
> > So unfortunately the advice we've received is essentially identical to
> > what Josh found when working for Sun, which is that there is nothing
> > that EnterpriseDB, or the community running postgresql.org can do to
> > help without risking severe penalties.
> 
> What's not apparent to me is why the one-click installers are any
> different from the source code.  ISTM that if putting them on the
> postgresql.org mirror network would be legally hazardous, then we
> *already* have a problem.
> 
> Is it not sufficient to have mirror servers within the US block
> connections from the embargoed countries?

To follow up on this, I think the reason blocking just USA servers from
serving embargoed countries is that the installers are USA-produced,
meaning anyone who moves them from the USA to servers that can serve
Syria is subject to prosecution, even if they are not USA citizens or
work for USA companies, but simply visit the USA.

Now, technically the source code is not USA-produced but should not be
served from USA servers, though I doubt practically that is an issue.

A more concrete issue is that the Command Prompt-produced RPMs are
USA-produced and probably have the same restrictions as the EDB
installers.  I wonder if those are blocked from serving embargoed
countries, though that is really a Command Prompt issue (meaning it is
not the community's responsibility to check on such things).

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com

  + None of us is going to be here forever. +